Bleacher Report Comment: Why Lebron Is Not Top 10 All-Time

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This was a comment from a Bleacher Report article but I can't find the original comment. Since it's only a comment and not an article (even though it's long), I'll post it in full, like the person on HoopsNation did. Aside from the claim that Lj is “the best player in the league right now”, that “his mid-range game is solid” (he shoots a pitiful 32.1% from 15-19ft :scusthov:), and that Miami had a solid bench (Dallas' benched ranked #2 in ppg when Dallas won but Miami's ranked dead last), this is very informative:

Lebron James is the best player in the league right now, but when people attempt to place him in the top 10 of all time they are simply delusional. Since people are attempting to play the farce of putting Lebron in the top 10, he is overrated. Remember, overrated does not mean bad. It simply means Lebron is given more credit than he deserves. Regardless, no one should believe the farce that if Lebron retired at this moment, he would be a top 10 player of all time. Anyone who does believe this is a sheep that blindly and arbitrarily follows the herd. I am going to attempt to open the eyes of these blind sheep slowly so that they may WITNESS the truth. Of course, such sheep will in all likelihood deny the light of truth after blindly stumbling through the darkness and following the herd for so long. Still, it's a start.

All of these player's careers are better in no particular order (except of course MJ at number 1 1. MJ 2. Magic 3. Bird 4. Hakeem 5. Duncan 6. Kareem 7. Shaq 8. Oscar Rob 9. Isaiah Thomas 10. Kobe 11. Jerry West. Before you start talking about how ridiculous this list is, consider the level of competition these people had to face, in addition to tougher defensive eras (for Duncan Shaq and Kobe - this was in the earlier stages of their career) instead of just copy pasting statistics, MVPs, rings etc. That stuff is relatively meaningless without putting it into context.

Wilt and Bill Russell played in a weak era and used their pure physical skill to dominate. Unlike Jerry West and Oscar Robertson, who had the skills to transfer over to todays game, Russell and Wilt used only their physical skills to dominate an era where you might only need to win 2 playoff rounds to win a title and with only 8-10 teams in the league. For this reason they are not in the top 10 Now, back to the lecture at hand. Perfection is perfected, so Ima let you understand. Lets look at why Lebron is not top 10 YET. By the end of his career he can easily be a top 5 player but he is not even top 10 yet.

1. Weak era Compared to the past - In the pre 2000s defense was much more physical than today, and very physical hand checking was permitted. Very rarely did they call little touch fouls that are constantly called today. Just watch some physical 80s 90s ball and you will see that there is no comparison. The level of hand checking and physical defense back then made it much harder to score, and after Jordan's era new rules were implemented. It was much harder to drive in the lane because teams were able to clog the lanes much more often than today (80s Pistons and 90s Knicks did that a lot) With the removal of these rules, offensive statistics were inflated and it is UNQUESTIONABLE that it is much easier to score in the post Jordan era.

In the 98-99 season, the NBA averaged 91.6 points per game. Nowadays the average is around 100 pts per game. You cannot simply attribute this to the quality of todays NBA players. The defensive rules have been changed to favor the offense. In spite of having it much easier in terms of playing offense, Lebron's scoring numbers still can not surpass Jordan, Bird, or Dominique's scoring in their prime years playing against REAL defense.

2. Failure and poor performances in the Finals - Despite having it easy compared to the past Lebron has a 2-2 record in the finals, even with another franchise player (wade) on his supporting cast. Some may say - well Magic is 5-4 Bird is 3-2 in the finals. Tell me, what team has Lebron faced in the finals with players of the same quality that Bird and Magic played - such as Bird and Magic themselves, Hakeem, Sampson, Dr J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Isiah Thomas? Lebron lost to Dirk Nowitzki's mavs - who cannot hold a candle to the vast majority of those mentioned earlier and a well rounded Spurs team with Tim Duncan past his prime. He did beat Durant and Westbrook - but again, the inflated offensive numbers of Durant due to a weak defensive era do not put him in the same category of the vast majority of those greats. Yes, Lebron did not have a good supporting cast with CLE in the Finals, but you would expect him to still have a good performance since he is supposed to be a top 10 player, right? nope - 22 ppg on 36% shooting, though he did have 7 rpg and 6 apg.

In the 2011 finals - with the help of 2 more franchise players - Lebron scored even less. On the other hand, Jordan never had less than 27 ppg in a finals series or even less than 22 points in a single game - and keep in mind this is all while lebron is playing in a WEAK DEFENSIVE era. Imagine how terrible he would have performed against the 96 sonics defense or the physical 90s knicks or 80s pistons when they allowed the defense to beat you up like they beat up Jordan.

3. Lebron's defense is weak - Lebron's defense is overrated. Yes, he does often guard the opposing team's best player, but he rarely does a good job of slowing them down. For every time he has a good defensive performance against Derrick Rose he lets Carmelo hit a game winner in his face or Paul George blow by him for an easy dunk. Oh well you might say Lebron was second in DPOY voting First of all, the fact that Lebron got voted second in the league for defense itself is overrating Lebron. Kawhi Leonard, P George, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Deng, are all better at slowing down a good offensive player. Lebron gets the highlight plays with the huge blocks and easy fast breaks, making people think he is a better defender than he really is, but he does not slow down offensive players as effectively as those guys (for example Kawhi Leonard did most of the work in holding lebron to under 20 pts in each of the first 3 games of the finals - Lebron could definitely not do the same to a player like Durant or Melo).

Secondly - again this is a weak defensive era. There are no Gary Payton Dennis Rodman Dikembe Mutombo Alonzo Mourning Hakeem Olajuwon David Robinson Sidney Moncrief Al Robertson Michael Cooper or Michael Jordan level defenders. The fact that Marc Gasol won DPOY last year is proof of this. Does any sane human being honestly think Marc Gasol can play defense anywhere near the level of the past top defenders?

To those saying Lebron can guard all 5 positions - that is only a half truth. He can guard all 5 positions for maybe one or two plays, but he cannot consistently guard a dwight howard, chris paul, paul george, tim duncan over the course of a whole game. No one on earth can find me a game where Lebron singlehandedly completely shuts down a big man/PF like Dwight or Garnett for 40+ minutes like Rodman used to shut down Shaq or Malone. Guarding a top big man or a top point guard for 5 seconds (not the whole game - Lebron can't do that at a high level consistently) is impressive to a degree, but don't act like Lebron's defense is the second coming of Dennis Rodman or Gary Payton.

4. Lack of clutch - Lebron's clutchness is a little underrated. He is more clutch than many think, but he is not super clutch. Lebron has played better in crunch time in recent years. Still, having Ray Allen bail him out after missing several clutch shots in game 6 vs SAS, getting showed up by Dirk Nowitzki in crunch time, missing clutch shots in 07 vs SAS - in other words - falling short several times when the stakes are at their highest. This goes back to Lebron's failures in the finals. He has clutch performances when the stakes aren't that high - but in the Finals he rarely makes the big shot. Some may say, oh well Robert Horry is so clutch and Steve Kerr was so clutch why don't you have them better than Lebron? Horry and Kerr are not franchise players, and outside of a good jumper and clutch shooting, and in Horrys case some defense, you did not get much else out of them. Lebron is a franchise player and if he wants to be among the top 10 his poor clutch performances, combined with his failure in the finals cannot warrant him such a high ranking.

As always, remember this is still in a weak defensive era which does not include physical defense, hand checking, or constant lane clogging like it was in the pre 2000s era. Also, yes a lot of past players like Duncan or Shaq were not that clutch, but they had other qualities that Lebron didn't - better performances in the finals, less failures, leading their teams to more championships, and better defense for their positions.

I had to separate this into 2 posts...
 
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Continued from the original post...

5. Lebron heavily relies on driving in the lane to score, pass etc, and this would not help him in the old eras
- I don't like copy pasting stats since numbers can be very misleading without putting them in context but look at this. Lebron's made shots this year (67% of them) come from within 8 feet. That means only one third of Lebron's shots are on the perimeter. If you watch 80s 90s REAL basketball you would see how difficult it is for Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isiah, etc. to drive in the lane - because defenses were allowed to hand check, play very physical without getting fouls called, clog the lanes more often - and they still put out better numbers than Lebron.

Lebron would have to rely on his midrange game much more often in the past eras, and even though his midrange game is solid, it wouldn't allow him to dominate in the past like he is dominating today. He doesn't have the midrange game of Jordan Bird Isaiah Dominique etc., and all of those guys were better at driving in the lane against tough defenses. Lebron can eventually be a top 5 player if he becomes more well rounded - defense, clutch, midrange, post game all can improve as well as getting more rings. But for now do not even think of breathing his name into the top 10.

What has been written is IRREFUTABLE. there is not ONE flaw in what has been written above. everything that was written is FACT, not opinion. I challenge any human being on earth to try and contest the indisputable truth that has been written. I know certain people will bring up idiotic arguments to try and combat the TRUTH that has been written, so i will destroy those arguments below before you have a chance to use them.

1. Lebron is averaging 27/7/7 for his career and this year is shooting at almost 60% how many people can say that? - This is just copy pasting statistics without putting them in context. Numbers are misleading if you don't put them in context. As explained before this is a weak defensive era and a soft era compared to the past. These numbers are going to be inflated. Even though Lebron's numbers are inflated, Lebron can't pass anywhere near the level of Isiah or Magic, can't score like Jordan or Nique, and can't rebound like 6 foot 4 Barkley. The past players outperform lebron while they are playing in a much tougher era to begin with.

2. Lebron has 2 championships and can win more - so what? he's winning championships in a much weaker era compared to the past. Beating and losing to Magic, Bird, Isiah, Hakeem, Barkley, K Malone, Payton + Kemp, David Rob, a prime Duncan, prime KG, Ewing, Dr J, Moses Malone, Dominique, Drexler when most of those players are playing in the physical 80s 90s is more impressive than losing to old Dirk, 2007 spurs, beating Durant and old spurs, losing and beating the Celtics for the last few years, losing to and beating the late 2000s pistons.

3. Lebron is too big and strong for anyone in the 80s 90s to guard him - wrong. I'm sure you would think the same about Shaq or Malone going against Dennis Rodman but you would be proved wrong about that too. If Lebron can be held under 20 for 3 straight games by Kawhi Leonard and an old spurs team, average 18ppg vs the mavericks in the finals, score 22 ppg shooting 36% against the 07 spurs, get completely dominated in game 5 vs BOS in 2010, he is definitely going to struggle against the 80s celtics pistons lakers 90s spurs rockets knicks with payton, dumars, mad max, hakeem, the young rodman, laimbeer, parish, ewing, moncrief, alvin rob, david rob, cooper, etc. He will be a good player in that era no doubt. But he wouldn't be placed in the top 10 of all time as of today.

4. Lebron has 4 mvps - again, in a WEAK ERA. Plus, MVPs themselves don't mean everything. MVPs are only a regular season award. Barkley and Malone won MVPs over Jordan the same years that Jordan crushed their teams in the finals. David Robinson won MVP the year Hakeem showed him up on his way to a second title. Steve Nash has more MVPs than Hakeem Kobe Barkley Malone but only a biased fan would put Steve Nash ahead of those guys. Kareem has more MVPs than Jordan but he is not on Jordan's level. Again - put the achievements and statistics in CONTEXT and you will not be misled. Numbers will lie otherwise

5. Lebron would shut down Jordan Nique all those scorers - call me when Lebron consistently shuts down lesser players like Melo Durant George. and don't bring up the ONE time that Lebron had a few good quarters of defense on Derrick Rose in 2011. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. Kobe shut down prime Iverson to 0 pts for an entire half in the reg season and then got showed up by AI in the 2001 finals. (Kobe in his prime is a better defender than Lebron, however)

6. Guys like Jordan Magic Bird Isiah had the help of Pippen Rodman Worthy Kareem Mchale Parish Dennis Johnson Dumars Dantley but Lebron only has Wade and Bosh and had no help in cleveland. Guys like Magic Kareem Bird Jordan had it easy winning titles because they had stacked teams - Outside of Kareem none of those players were franchise players who could carry a team like Wade carried miami. Bosh I admit is a solid third guy but not a true franchise player since he barely got TOR to the playoffs. Lebron also has a solid bench to back him up just like all those players had solid benches.

Its not like all of the past greats started off with a championship team and got carried to a championship like so many people claim. Who can you name on Jordan's team before they got Pippen? Who remembers Woolridge or Corzine? and when can you remember Pippen bailing out Jordan like Ray Allen bailed out Lebron? Pippen always messed up with the game on the line like when he missed the big FTs vs Indiana in 98, missed the clutch shot vs jazz in the finals. Jordan carried pippen not the other way around like people try to claim in order to diminish Jordan's greatness. Look at the 96 team. You had pippen, Jordan, kukoc as the best scorers. Longley was meh. Rodman was a pure defensive player and rebounder (and an amazing one at that). They had a solid supporting cast of Harper and Kerr. By no means was it super stacked.

Magic Johnson as a rookie won the MVP of the finals - its not like he was just there for the ride and got it handed to him. Plus, he was playing against Dr J and Moses. As a ROOKIE - thats INSANE. He did have a championship team around him, but he carried THEM. not vice versa. Kareem also carried MIL when they needed him in the finals so don't diminish Kareem's accomplishments by saying he rode Magic's coattails. Both Kareem and Magic won finals MVPs multiple times they were not given anything. Wade and Lebron have also won finals MVPs. yes Kareem is better than Wade by a lot but that alone does not lessen Magic's accomplishments. Magic still consistently played at an extremely high level REGARDLESS of Kareem's contributions.

Bird in his second year won the title and got robbed of the MVP when they gave it to maxwell. Parish McHale Johnson were all very good supporting cast players but they were not guys who could carry the team if Bird wasn't there. Dont diminish Bird's accomplishments either. Hakeem never had another top player helping him outside of Sampson who became injured and and old Drexler. Hakeem's team had a better regular season the year before they got drexler than the year they got Drexler. In spite of that he won 2 championships in 3 finals in a much more competitive era.

His cast consisted of mad max, kenny smith, robert horry, thorpe, cassell, and elie. Good supporting cast but not a stacked team by any means. If you are going to try and diminish the greats of the past by saying they had super stacked teams you are only proving your own incompetence and ignorance much in the same way that Lebron and his biased fans have demonstrated their own incompetence in failing to consistently perform at a high level in the finals, and in putting Lebron anywhere near the top 5 players of all time, respectively.
 
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ThugLife

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fukk yo thread bytch you got Dave Chappelle lips

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So who are the top 10? Please provide as lengthy and in depth an analysis for each of the top 10.

This is getting creepy. You're like cantstop without the humor.

I didn't write it but my guess would be those mentioned in the comment.
 

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bytch if you don't get out the coliseum no one here gives a fukk about a bytch view on anything other than what's for dinner. :camby:
 

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I didn't write it but my guess would be those mentioned in the comment.

Well, are you accepting the premise of the post? If so, please provide a detailed analysis of YOUR top 10. If not, why the fukk did you post it?
 

Victim of Racism

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bytch if you don't get out the coliseum no one here gives a fukk about a bytch view on anything other than what's for dinner. :camby:

:damn: at you getting into your feelings about an entertainer. :sadbron::cape::bryan:You must have a horrible relationship with your mother. :scusthov:
 
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