Debate on "Progress".

[Shogun]

Simple question:

Is progress good?

Spoiler: disclaimer

This is not a thinly veiled attack on progressivism, nor do I hope for it to become a partisan pissing match. I think its an important question to consider that requires a more nuanced discussion. I have lots of thoughts, but am still undecided. Am curious to know what you all think.

 

[Shogun]

Okay, I'll start.

At the moment I feel like progress is inevitable, but neither good nor bad. There are obviously instances of progress which are good, and instances which are bad. From a western historical perspective, it's hard to ignore that the progressive philosophy which resulted in European exploration, economic liberalism, industrialization, and imperialism have had a net negative, despite all the comforts they have brought to a small portion of the human population.

 

[Rout3r2035]

Good: greater social equality, greater access to advanced technology for people, more people creeping out of poverty globally

Bad: greater wealth inequality, severe culling of the labor force, warfare over basic resources instead of strategy, Western government controlled by a mix of oligarchy/technocracy

That's just one example of the endless claims you could make on either side. My real point is that progress is inevitable. So regardless of whether we like it or not, the most we can do is try to steer it to produce the most good and minimize the bad.

 

[DEAD7]

 

[acri1]

Gonna need somebody to define what's meant here by "progress".

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Go live in a cave and then come back and tell us if progress is good

 

[mc_brew]

Good: greater social equality, greater access to advanced technology for people, more people creeping out of poverty globally

Bad: greater wealth inequality, severe culling of the labor force, warfare over basic resources instead of strategy, Western government controlled by a mix of oligarchy/technocracy

That's just one example of the endless claims you could make on either side. My real point is that progress is inevitable. So regardless of whether we like it or not, the most we can do is try to steer it to produce the most good and minimize the bad.

i'm going to veer off on a tangent.... i think part of the problem that is being experienced these days is that progress is happening at a faster and faster pace than in the past and i think many people are having a hard time keeping up..... this creates a push back that either says let's stop progress and go backwards or let's take a break and slow progress down...

 

[Shogun]

Gonna need somebody to define what's meant here by "progress".

Figurative sense of "growth, development, advancement to higher stages"

 

[Shogun]

Go live in a cave and then come back and tell us if progress is good

Much of the world is living in a situation close to that so we can enjoy what we do.
They might be of a different opinion.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Much of the world is living in a situation close to that so we can enjoy what we do.
They might be of a different opinion.

No. Most of the world is living much better than ancient humans.

And no progress is not predicate on some being left behind.

Excess is predicate on some being exploited, but even then, those who are being exploited benefit from progress albeit much slower.

 

[Shogun]

No. Most of the world is living much better than ancient humans.

And no progress is not predicate on some being left behind.

Excess is predicate on some being exploited, but even then, those who are being exploited benefit from progress albeit much slower.

Fair point. I would counter that nearly all human progress has been predicated on the desire for more...the desire for excess. And if that's true, then others are necessarily left behind.

Also, do you believe in global warming as a result of human actions? If so, are you optimistic that we can reverse it through further scientific/social progress?

Last, considering the extreme spike in population starting in the 18th century, do you think that's sustainable?

 

[Shogun]

Good: greater social equality, greater access to advanced technology for people, more people creeping out of poverty globally

Bad: greater wealth inequality, severe culling of the labor force, warfare over basic resources instead of strategy, Western government controlled by a mix of oligarchy/technocracy

That's just one example of the endless claims you could make on either side. My real point is that progress is inevitable. So regardless of whether we like it or not, the most we can do is try to steer it to produce the most good and minimize the bad.

Your last point is basically Jeremy Bentham's 19th century theory of Utilitarianism; simply put - the greatest good for the greatest amount of people.

What's interesting is that it did result in a shift in scientific focus to things like urban sanitation, biochemistry, medicine,
pasteurization, improved agricultural techniques, city planning, etc. The ironic part is the majority of these technologies were then used to fuel and fight World War 1 which was one of the largest catastrophes humanity had seen to that point.

 

[Shogun]

Is 'Progress' Good for Humanity?

The Expected Utility Theory of Conflict: Measuring Theoretical Progress