A World Without Work

The Real

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This is by Ross Douthat, so there's a lot of stupidity in it, but it's worth reading to see a Conservative engaging with what has traditionally been a Marxist concept. Seems like more and more mainstream commentators (Krugman being the other major example) are knowingly or unknowingly treading on Marxist territory these days.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/o...world-without-work.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=1&

IMAGINE, as 19th-century utopians often did, a society rich enough that fewer and fewer people need to work — a society where leisure becomes universally accessible, where part-time jobs replace the regimented workweek, and where living standards keep rising even though more people have left the work force altogether.

If such a utopia were possible, one might expect that it would be achieved first among the upper classes, and then gradually spread down the social ladder. First the wealthy would work shorter hours, then the middle class, and finally even high school dropouts would be able to sleep late and take four-day weekends and choose their own adventures — “to hunt in the morning,” as Karl Marx once prophesied, “fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner ...”

Yet the decline of work isn’t actually some wild Marxist scenario. It’s a basic reality of 21st-century American life, one that predates the financial crash and promises to continue apace even as normal economic growth returns. This decline isn’t unemployment in the usual sense, where people look for work and can’t find it. It’s a kind of post-employment, in which people drop out of the work force and find ways to live, more or less permanently, without a steady job. So instead of spreading from the top down, leisure time — wanted or unwanted — is expanding from the bottom up. Long hours are increasingly the province of the rich.

Of course, nobody is hailing this trend as the sign of civilizational progress. Instead, the decline in blue-collar work is often portrayed in near-apocalyptic terms — on the left as the economy’s failure to supply good-paying jobs, and on the right as a depressing sign that government dependency is killing the American work ethic.

But it’s worth linking today’s trends to the older dream of a post-work utopia, because there are ways in which the decline in work-force participation is actually being made possible by material progress.

That progress can be hard to appreciate at the moment, but America’s immense wealth is still our era’s most important economic fact. “When a nation is as rich as ours,” Scott Winship points out in an essay for Breakthrough Journal, “it can realize larger absolute gains than it did in the past ... even if it has lower growth rates.” Our economy may look stagnant compared to the acceleration after World War II, but even disappointing growth rates are likely to leave the America of 2050 much richer than today.

Those riches mean that we can probably find ways to subsidize — through public means and private — a continuing decline in blue-collar work. Many of the Americans dropping out of the work force are not destitute: they’re receiving disability payments and food stamps, living with relatives, cobbling together work here and there, and often doing as well as they might with a low-wage job. By historical standards their lives are more comfortable than the left often allows, and the fiscal cost of their situation is more sustainable than the right tends to admits. (Medicare may bankrupt us, but food stamps probably will not.)

There is a certain air of irresponsibility to giving up on employment altogether, of course. But while pundits who tap on keyboards for a living like to extol the inherent dignity of labor, we aren’t the ones stocking shelves at Walmart or hunting wearily, week after week, for a job that probably pays less than our last one did. One could make the case that the right to not have a boss is actually the hardest won of modern freedoms: should it really trouble us if more people in a rich society end up exercising it?

The answer is yes — but mostly because the decline of work carries social costs as well as an economic price tag. Even a grinding job tends to be an important source of social capital, providing everyday structure for people who live alone, a place to meet friends and kindle romances for people who lack other forms of community, a path away from crime and prison for young men, an example to children and a source of self-respect for parents.

Here the decline in work-force participation is of a piece with the broader turn away from community in America — from family breakdown and declining churchgoing to the retreat into the virtual forms of sport and sex and friendship. Like many of these trends, it poses a much greater threat to social mobility than to absolute prosperity. (A nonworking working class may not be immiserated; neither will its members ever find a way to rise above their station.) And its costs will be felt in people’s private lives and inner worlds even when they don’t show up in the nation’s G.D.P.

In a sense, the old utopians were prescient: we’ve gained a world where steady work is less necessary to human survival than ever before.

But human flourishing is another matter. And it’s our fulfillment, rather than the satisfaction of our appetites, that’s threatened by the slow decline of work.
 
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the question is where is the money supposed to come from to support a fully socialized population and what things will be in place to regulate its population growth etc

a country like north korea is actually the most suited for this kind of a paradigm shift than any. what i mean is, we're entering into more totalitarian realm, mainly out of necessity than anything. with a society so dependent on handouts, theres no alternative

the shift to this new version of the world in the west for example would be gigantic. so many of its systems would have to be completely revamped

your commentary about the right shifting into a more marxist kind of dialogue is poignant, and speaks to how much things are changing
 

the mechanic

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Interesting idea...IMO this marxist utopia is unattainable even with the end of "work" which i assume is generally the blue collar activity which puts food and clothes in the stores and keeps the drains and pipelines flowing there will still be inequalities and stratification of some kind.
 
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Interesting idea...IMO this marxist utopia is unattainable even with the end of "work" which i assume is generally the blue collar activity which puts food and clothes in the stores and keeps the drains and pipelines flowing there will still be inequalities and stratification of some kind.
yeah but probably mainly only in things like extreme luxury items. most of our lives no matter what socioeconomic status we have basically just revolve around the use of technology/internet anyway. i dont see why ipads couldnt be personally 3d printed one day down the line either
 

The Real

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Interesting idea...IMO this marxist utopia is unattainable even with the end of "work" which i assume is generally the blue collar activity which puts food and clothes in the stores and keeps the drains and pipelines flowing there will still be inequalities and stratification of some kind.

Well, the end of work, as defined in that particular way, is part and parcel of Marx's vision of a utopia. The idea (realistic or not) is that the kind of basic nuts and bolts labor you describe would be entirely automated, on some Star Trek shyt with the replicators and so on. Marx was a big believer in technology's power to fundamentally alter the human condition, though he also believed that if restricted to the context of a capitalist society, the automation of labor would instead lead to decreased employment and actually take power and skills away from workers. As for inequalities and stratifications, they are supposed to persist even through the end of work, though only through pure meritocracy, as opposed to the kind of exploitative inequality we have now. The inequality is supposed to naturally decrease as our quality of life increases until (and here's the most unrealistic part) humanity is living so well off and with no resource scarcity that our consciousness naturally transforms into an egalitarian one and we realize that we don't need that kind of stratification anymore.
 

Fillerguy

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subs....


work = energy :shaq:

work = the amount of energy needed to move an object over a certain distance :shaq:



A post-scarcity world :blessed: Nanofactories in every home :blessed:

Until we lose control of nanobots and they start consuming all organic life on Earth:merchant:

But it will be a :blessed: 50 or so years of the nano revolution
 

NovelThug

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Work is over-rated. Everyone hates it. People long for Fridays, weekends. Let's face it, work is dumb. Better to will yourself to win the lotto, and not work. Much more fun to enjoy life when you can do what you want, not what you feel you have to.
 

Brown_Pride

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Work is over-rated. Everyone hates it. People long for Fridays, weekends. Let's face it, work is dumb. Better to will yourself to win the lotto, and not work. Much more fun to enjoy life when you can do what you want, not what you feel you have to.

you gotta be on welfare on purpose with an attitude like that, there's really no other alternative.

WHen you don't have to worry about survival because food and shelter are provided and you don't care that you're in that situation then fuk yeah life's a god damn bowl of cherries. Unfortunately you gotta feed, cloth and shelter yourself and that requires money. If you're content with what you have then honestly who is anyone to argue, hell i'd argue if you've arrived at a place where you are content, and more so even HAPPY with your life, regardless of how it is then you've won the game. :win:
 

TrueEpic08

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you gotta be on welfare on purpose with an attitude like that, there's really no other alternative.

WHen you don't have to worry about survival because food and shelter are provided and you don't care that you're in that situation then fuk yeah life's a god damn bowl of cherries. Unfortunately you gotta feed, cloth and shelter yourself and that requires money. If you're content with what you have then honestly who is anyone to argue, hell i'd argue if you've arrived at a place where you are content, and more so even HAPPY with your life, regardless of how it is then you've won the game. :win:

This is a ridiculous statement, and indicative of how very modern and recent sentiments about work have become the norm the current organization of global political economy.

Have you ever really thought about where and when current attitudes about work were shaped (not just you, anybody really)? Because when one thinks about quote-unquote, "antiquity," through the middle ages, until very recently in the development of societies around the globe, work was reviled and for the lower classes. In Greek and Roman societies, no one who had any type of status worked. More importantly, no one who wrote, thought or created worked. Tilling the land and the like were for slaves, period.

When did this change? Understand, even through the enclosure movements, rise in the status of merchants and artisans selling wares and goods to make a living, such a way of fashioning a living was looked down upon. It wasn't until the most integral elements of capitalism (pre-liquidation and affectation of capital through stocks, mass manipulation of debt and credit and the like; that's a bit different) started to integrate themselves into the workings of the state (that is, working-classes claiming rights, their bodies and a place for themselves within the organization of society AS laborers, rather than simply accepting and rationalizing their position as serfs, slaves, tenant farmers, etc, and this being ultimately accepted through suffrage) that this attitude toward work became something to be valorized throughout the society rather than the recourse of the most recalcitrant.

It is a fundamentally capitalist notion, an affective organization of the body that transformed mentalities as clamors for rights and recognition within the state resulted in bare lives being taken into the state-form and recognized. When suffrage became universal and socialist parties became prominent, this type of thought (the very type that people resort to whenever they hear about the normal man refusing work in any way) became largely prevalent in the lives of societies. Nobody in the upper-classes cared, because it worked well for them (ignoring slightly the argument that there is only class and ideological emanations of that class) and the lower classes did not care about the way in which their lives were organized via focusing their energies toward what is "most productive for society" (a ridiculously spectacular and capitalistic notion that seems to be adopted as an instrument of progressivism everywhere) and the reification and exchange of their time through fiat currency. They fought for it, so why should they be against it in totality. All political-economic fights in the main stream have been about how this should be organized, nothing radical like completely abolishing it.

Thus, those who refuse work do so with an implicit understanding of a history far beyond the myopic lens of modern and postmodern affective capitalism, and even could be said to understand the workings of the body far, far more than any normatively ethical human being who implicitly subscribes to that notion of "he who does not work, neither shall he eat". While this article doesn't catch my fancy (that notion of "social capital" is beyond repulsive to me), the notion of refusing work is something I absolutely understand and would even be willing to support.
 

Brown_Pride

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Quite possibly the dumbest thing i've heard this year so far...

Have you ever really thought about where and when current attitudes about work were shaped (not just you, anybody really)? Because when one thinks about quote-unquote, "antiquity," through the middle ages, until very recently in the development of societies around the globe, work was reviled and for the lower classes. In Greek and Roman societies, no one who had any type of status worked. More importantly, no one who wrote, thought or created worked. Tilling the land and the like were for slaves, period.

When did this change?
When they outlawed slavery.

The answer to your questions rest within your statement.
We work because WE MUST, or rather we work because there is work that must be done. WE USED TO be able to tell slaves to do that shyt, now we can't exploit people at that level and simply "enjoy" the fruits of their labor.

Your understanding of "work" highlights EXACTLY why people need to work.

us, those who refuse work do so with an implicit understanding of a history far beyond the myopic lens of modern and postmodern affective capitalism, and even could be said to understand the workings of the body far, far more than any normatively ethical human being who implicitly subscribes to that notion of "he who does not work, neither shall he eat"

and i'm sure the vast majority of those on welfare wake up each morning being reassured of their situation because of their "implicit understanding" of history, having a broader understanding of the postmodern affects of capitalism. Clearly they overstand the concept of "he who does not work does not eat" and have chosen to remain the few, the enlightened.

We should all be lucky to reach this level of understanding.
:upsetfavre:
 

The Real

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Quite possibly the dumbest thing i've heard this year so far...


When they outlawed slavery.

The answer to your questions rest within your statement.
We work because WE MUST, or rather we work because there is work that must be done. WE USED TO be able to tell slaves to do that shyt, now we can't exploit people at that level and simply "enjoy" the fruits of their labor.

Your understanding of "work" highlights EXACTLY why people need to work.



and i'm sure the vast majority of those on welfare wake up each morning being reassured of their situation because of their "implicit understanding" of history, having a broader understanding of the postmodern affects of capitalism. Clearly they overstand the concept of "he who does not work does not eat" and have chosen to remain the few, the enlightened.

We should all be lucky to reach this level of understanding.
:upsetfavre:

I don't think he's promoting welfare reliance in the context of the status quo. I think he's rejecting the idea that work is essential to a functioning, productive society.
 

Brown_Pride

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I don't think he's promoting welfare reliance in the context of the status quo. I think he's rejecting the idea that work is essential to a functioning, productive society.

until a viable alternative is presented it's still the dumbest shyt i've heard all year.

do you support his idea?
 
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