Ancient Egyptians linked more with other Africans

[Bawon Samedi]

I thought I'd post this and inform people even more how Ancient Egyptians linked more to other Africans than non Africans. Since I found out the AE are a popular topic on this site. Anyways enjoy...

"In this regard it is interesting to note that limb proportions of Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be "Super-Negroid," meaning that the distal segments are
elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans.....skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics." (-- C.L. Brace, 1993. Clines and clusters..")

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushytes, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians
had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by
Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7
(a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths;
data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the
Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the
Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early
Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than
predicted from femoral length. Despite these
differences, all samples lie relatively clustered
together as compared to the other populations."
(Zakrzewski, S.R.(2003). "Variation in ancient
Egyptian stature and body proportions". American
Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229

"Intralimb (crural and brachial) indices are
significantly higher in ancient Egyptians than in
American Whites (except crural index among
females), i.e., Egyptians have relatively longer distal
segments (Table 4). Intralimb indices are not
significantly different between Egyptians and
American Blacks... Many of those who have studied
ancient Egyptians have commented on their
characteristically ''tropical'' or ''African'' body plan
(Warren, 1897; Masali, 1972; Robins, 1983; Robins
and Shute, 1983, 1984, 1986; Zakrzewski, 2003).
Egyptians also fall within the range of modern
African populations (Ruff and Walker, 1993), but
close to the upper limit of modern Europeans as well,
at least for the crural index (brachial indices are
definitely more ''African'').. In terms of femoral and
tibial length to total skeletal height proportions, we
found that ancient Egyptians are significantly
different from US Blacks, although still closer to
Blacks than to Whites.

Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old
Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals,
and workers and high officials in our sample found
no statistically significant differences among them.
Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for
differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians
over a wider temporal range. In general, recent
studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians
support scenarios of biological continuity through
time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and
qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from
Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the
presence of a few outliers but concluding that the
dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous
and that the affinities observed indicate overall
biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic
through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.

Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive
summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies
and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods.
She found that the earlier samples were relatively
more homogeneous in comparison to the later
groups. However, overall results indicated genetic
continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early
Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic
diversity within the population, suggesting an
indigenous process of state formation. She also
concluded that while the biological patterning of the
Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent
temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the
stature estimation formulae developed here may be
broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian
populations.."
("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new
technique based on anatomical reconstruction of
stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff,
Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman,
Aly El-Sawaf,(Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008,
Jun;136(2):147-55

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Conclusion
To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.
http://www.academia.edu/545582/The_..._Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Record

Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians were an indigenous product of Africa, and Nubia was the African ancestor of that civilization (not Berbers, not Arabs, most certainly not Europeans but the Nubians to the south). The National Geographic also dedicated a page to Egypt's origins on their webpage which was written by S.O.Y. Keita a couple of years earlier which correlates with Gatto:
The Neolithic cultures in northern Egypt show evidence over time of varying contacts, with Saharan influences the most dominant. In the case of food procurement, ancestral Egyptians living on Lake Fayum added to their tradition of foraging by raising Near Eastern domesticated plants (wheat and barley) and animals (sheep and goats). Domesticated cattle came from the Sahara but may also have come from the Near East. Considering that wheat and barley agriculture was practiced in Asia (the Near East) 2,000 years before it was in Egypt, it is important to note that the early Egyptian way of life did not change abruptly at this time (around 5000 B.C.), which is what one would expect if Egypt had simply been peopled by farmers migrating from the Near East. These early Egyptians incorporated the new food stuffs and techniques—and likely some people—into their culture and society on their own terms.The major features of cultural and political development that led to dynastic Egypt originated in southern Egypt during what is called the predynastic period. Some evidence suggests that predynastic Egyptian and early Nubian cultures had ties to the early Saharan cultures and shared a Saharo-Nilotic heritage. Perhaps the earliest predynastic culture, the Badarian-Tasian* (4400 B.C. or earlier, to 4000 B.C.), had the clearest ties to Saharan cultures in the desert west of Nubia.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Ancient_Egypt

This is interesting because since the interest in Nile Valley civilizations and particularly Egypt, for false racial reasons Nubia was seen as the less accomplished "black" neighboring civilization to the south and as such was shunned for centuries by Western historians. In reality both civilizations were of the same Saharan-Nilotic African origins, which would logically mean that both were black. A recent NYtimes article makes mention of these racist inaccuracies:

More recently, our own Western prejudices — namely the idea that geographic Egypt was not a part of “black” Africa — have contributed to the dearth of knowledge about Nubia. The early-20th-century archaeologist George Reisner, for instance, identified large burial mounds at the site of Kerma as the remains of high Egyptian officials instead of those of Nubian kings. (Several of Reisner’s finds are in the show, reattributed to the Nubians.


In one of his catalog essays the archaeologist Geoff Emberling, who conceived the show along with Jennifer Chi of the institute, examines some of these historical errors.

“We now recognize that populations of Nubia and Egypt form a continuum rather than clearly distinct groups,” Mr. Emberling writes, “and that it is impossible to draw a line between Egypt and Nubia that would indicate where ‘black’ begins.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/a...ms-of-africa-review.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all&

So with all of the above being pointed out, I would like to ask the following questions:

1) Shouldn't Nubia's detrimental role in the development of World civilization become more recognized by the media (Nat Geo, Discovery ect)?

2) If Egypt and Nubia were clearly of the same biological and cultural origins then why do some people assert that one was "definitely" black and the other was some unknown very dark skinned "Caucasoid" race? Logically wouldn't both biologically indistinguishable neighboring tropical African populations both be black?

3) How much mainstream contemporary evidence does a theory have to have before it is no longer considered "fringe" (or in this case "Afrocentric") and accepted and presented to masses (via the media) as mainstream?

 

[Bawon Samedi]

NUCLEAR DNA
__________
Nubians cluster closest to Egyptians than Arab cluster to Egyptians. So Nubians are more related to Egyptians than Arabs are:
http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/2/1/12/figure/F6?highres=y

Ancient Egyptians & Nubians were the closest related peoples to each other. Nile valley civilizations, a river that flows northwards.

Today modern North Sudanese are closest related to Egyptians which is said to correlate with historic close relations between the two who share the longest border.
__________
Quote:
''Individuals from northern Sudan clustered together with those from Egypt, and individuals from southern Sudan clustered with those from the Karamoja population (Uganda). The similarity of the Nubian and Egyptian populations suggest that migration, potentially bidirectional, occurred along the Nile river Valley, which is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.''
Source (Result; 5th sentence):
http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/2/1/12#abs

Quote:
''The patterns of population structure we found in northeast Africa, in particular the similarity of Nubian (a northern Sudanese group that speak Nilo-Saharan languages) and the Egyptian population. Is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia, probably resulting in genetic flow between the two regions.''

Stronger evidence points to the relation between Ancient Egypt & Nubia to of occurred before the establishment of those civilizations in the ''late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene'' periods.As opposed to Egyptians & Nubian civilizations conquering each other later.
__________
Quote:
''However, a synthesis of evidence from archaeology, historical linguistics, texts, distribution of haplotypes outside Egypt, and some demographic considerations lends greater support to the establishment, before the Middle Kingdom, of the observed distributions of the most prevalent haplotypes V, XI, and IV. It is suggested that the pattern of diversity for these variants in the Egyptian NILE VALLEY was largely the product of population events that occurred in the late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene through the First Dynasty, and was sustained by continuous smaller-scale bidirectional migrations/interactions. The higher frequency of V in Ethiopia than in Nubia or upper (southern) Egypt has to be taken into account in any discussion of variation in the NILE VALLEY.''
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16136533


Cradle of medicine was in Ancient Egypt and Nubia...
__________
Quote:
''The Cradle of the history of medicine in the Old World is to be found in Ancient Egypt and Nubia.''
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1034196/?page=1

First written clinical records came from Ancient Egypt & Nubia
__________
Quote:
''The earliest written clinical record was produced in Ancient Egypt and Nubia as two medical documents or papyri which were discovered in 1862''
Source (2nd paragraph):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1034196/?page=3


Quote:
''Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia.''
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10090902

 

[ChatGPT-5]

Super Negroid

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Super Negroid

Meaning they're even closer to other Africans south of them. "Negroid" as in tropical body plan I believe.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

More.

Archaeological evidence also shows that both Upper and Lower Nile Valley inhabitants were of the same Saharan-Sudanese origins.

^^^That alone crushes the idea of the dynastic race theory that so called pale Caucasoid came from the North and introduced civilization to the Nile Valley. But I have more.

From a biological standpoint early Lower Egyptians were very distant from their Middle Eastern neighbors and instead grouped with their neighbors further up the Nile who are according indisputably black.

"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
http://books.google.com/books?id=25...uggesting a lack of common ancestors"&f=false

Here is yet another study finding just that.

The early Egyptians and Nubians overlap with each other followed by Sudanese and Horners. Later and finally modern Egyptians group more with Middle Easterners towards the middle and bottom of the dendrogram. The Fitzwilliam's Museum also states just that on their official website dedicated to placing ancient Egypt back into it's rightful black African context:

Were the people in Ancient Kemet the same groups of people who live Egypt today?

No. Throughout Egypt’s history it had traded and fought with people from other countries. From around 750 BC the Nubian rulers, often called ‘The Kushytes’ controlled Kemet and became its Twenty-fifth Dynasty. During this time Kemet enjoyed a renaissance, or return to earlier culture, as indicated by the promotion of the cult of the god Amun and also copies of earlier statues that were made by officials and the rulers.



Later, the population was affected by the immigration of soldiers, traders and settlers from outside cultures, which included two Persian invasions in 525 BC and 343 BC; Macedonian Greeks who ruled Kemet from 332-30 BC; Romans, who took control of Kemet in 30 BC; and the Islamic settlement in AD 642. The Persians ruled Kemet from their own country. The Greek rulers, in contrast, lived in Kemet and adopted Egyptian culture and traditions; however, the language for administration was changed to Greek. The Romans, although absent rulers, had large numbers of their army in Kemet and were keen to promote Egyptian culture, albeit their own version of it. The last hieroglyphic inscription dates to AD 394, after this time Christianity, which had been present in Egypt from the first century AD, gradually became the dominant religion. Early Islamic rulers maintained cultural links with earlier Egypt, as seen by the minaret at the Mosque of Ibn Tulun in Cairo, which is in the form of the famous lighthouse of Alexandria and which dated to the third century BC. The language was changed to Arabic at this time and the religion to Islam.
Source:
http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/ant/egypt/kemet/virtualkemet/faq/

They all seem to acknowledge the significant biological input that foreigners on Egypt and it's subsequent affect on the population biologically.

 

[BlackMajik]

Great post even tho I already knew most of this

 

[alpo]

Okay????

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ancient Egyptians being black is only news to CACs

 

[Premeditated]

Perez Hilton is homo

Great find though, even though I already knew this, it's good to find more updates. I'll read after I'm done smoking.

 

[ThatTruth777]

I appreciate the information

But you know what's gonna happen right.
I remember just browsing yahoo answers one day and dudes were asking well.. were the nubians really black

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Glad you guys enjoying the thread, even though ya knew most of this. Just wanted to post some updated stuff that wasnt posted on here.

 

[Premeditated]

I appreciate the information

But you know what's gonna happen right.
I remember just browsing yahoo answers one day and dudes were asking well.. were the nubians really black

up to now, I'm actually surprise more racist trolls haven't question the Nubian's race like they do other Northeast Africans just to fit their agendas.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

up to now, I'm actually surprise more racist trolls haven't question the Nubian's race like they do other Northeast Africans just to fit their agendas.

Especially when its been said multiple times that the Nubians and Egyptians were really the same people.

 

[88m3]

Did I get in before the shyt storm