KUZMA > SIMMONS
Ben Simmons - "They picked Kemba? His team is 7 games under us"
- Thread starter THE MACHINE
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Mean while Kemba is getting in Lowrys ass. 
Kemba is without question better than Simmons.
Kemba is without question better than Simmons.
You're showing your lack of basketball knowledge because ball handling doesn't just encompass dribbling alone, as ball handling skills include passing & the ability to make good decisions when the ball in your hands.
Again, you're confusing dribbling the ball vs ball handling. However the top 5 point guards you listed as "top tier" (Curry, CP3, Westbrook, Kyrie & Lillard) all have premier dribbling & ball handling skills which is one of the parameters that set them apart from other good or average PG's.
No, which is one of the reasons why Dragic is just an average PG. And just because a player has been voted in as an "all star" doesn't mean that they're actually "elite" at their perspective position.
No, I'm not just "talking about" scoring, as I've already laid out in my previous post that a complete PG does more than just soley put up points.
Good assessment, but Simmons is limiting his overall potential to be a great player by not having a reliable mid range jumper or decent 3 point shot as he won't always be able to use his athletic ability to get to the basket & score & defenses will sag off him in crucial parts of the game where there are just a few minutes remaining & the 76's need points.
Per your own metrics, Simmons fails as an "overall" PG because he doesn't run an efficient offense due to his higher than average turnover rate and poor shooting range.
The Per Player Efficiency Rating would disagree with your assessment.that Kemba Walker is "one dimensional" as he's rated 7th among PG's over Ben Simmons who's 11th. Now while the PPER doesn't factor in most defensive metrics, it gives a good indication of an balanced offensive player. And while Kemba isn't a defense force, he's not a bad defender & in fact is one of the better players in the league at drawing charges which shows one again that there are a number of other aspects one must look at when measuring a players defense.
Players Hustle
It doesn't take common sense to realize that too many personal fouls cripples a team by giving the other team extra points or possessions.plus in some cases it can prevent players from fully exerting themselves on the defensive end in close/tight games because the team is on the verge of being in the penalty.
We're discussing "complete" PG's, not one way specialists, so trying to bring up the "size" of one PG who can defend but can't do anything else skill wise on the court at a high level invalidates your argument.
You're confusing elite with top tier. Kemba is definitely top ten PG which is "top tier". The others 5 PG's you listed would be considered elite.7. Kemba Walker, Charlotte Hornets
Kent Smith/Getty Images
NBA Position Rankings: Top 15 Point Guards for the Rest of 2017-18 SeasonAge: 27
2017-18 Per-Game Stats: 21.6 points, 3.4 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 1.1 steals, 0.3 blocks
Advanced Metrics: 19.8 PER, 75.5 TPA, 3.34 RPM
Kemba Walker has done more than survive a dry spell from beyond the arc (though we should note he's not yet showing signs of pulling his three-point percentage out of the doldrums). He's continued to thrive as the unquestioned motor of the Charlotte Hornets, torturing countless foes with his basket attacks out of the pick-and-roll and weaponizing his game-changing step-back jumper.
Partially due to the putridity of Charlotte's supporting point guards, Walker has emerged as one of the game's most indispensible players. Some stars post dizzying on/off splits, but the Hornets with their fearless leader don't even resemble the bumblebees just attempting to survive the flyswatter without him.
When Walker is playing, they outscore the opposition by 4.8 points per 100 possessions—a mark that would match that of the No. 4 Boston Celtics. Without him, the net rating plunges to a dismal minus-15.4 that would leave them well behind the NBA-worst Sacramento Kings (minus-9.8).
NBA Position Rankings: Top 15 Point Guards for the Rest of 2017-18 Season
No one is saying Simmons isn't a good defender, but to deny his size as the largest PG in the history of the NBA (6'10) isn't a determining factor or an advantage with Simmons being able to guard & defend against much smaller guards (particularly when the average height for a NBA PG is 6'2 with shoes) is ludicrous.
Even if Ben Simmons is the better defender, he's still not a better overall PG than Kemba Walker at this stage in his career.
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nikkas in this thread acting like Ben Simmons couldn't stat horde if wanted toIm convinced most these nikkas hating dont watch Ben Simmons and just saying anything for daps
3 years from now...this thread is gonna have a lot ofposts in them.
He could be averaging 20 ppg easy if he wanted to
nikkas in this thread acting like Ben Simmons couldn't stat horde if wanted to
he won't be able to drive 24/7. nikkaz talk about Lonzo's J or even Swipa's, but this taupe ass nikka's shyt is just as trash.
All he does now is drive 24/7 and nikkas ain't stopping him
If he could hit ft's consistently he'd already be a 20 ppg scorerMan I can't wait to up these threads in a few years
All he does now is drive 24/7 and nikkas ain't stopping him
Man I can't wait to up these threads in a few years
That doesn't refute the point that his J is trash. Yes, he can't be stopped driving. No one is disputing that. His jumper and free throw shooting is wack.
well he can’t hit ft’s consistently so he isn’t a 20 point scorer lol.All he does now is drive 24/7 and nikkas ain't stopping him
Man I can't wait to up these threads in a few years
with any sports, particularly my two favorite, bball and boxing...there needs to be a set criteria and not so much subjectivity when it comes to certain things.
if you say put the next best player in and agree that Kemba is the next best then it is what it is. but in the NBA winning is always the top fukkin criteria until its convenient for it not to be. thats what so much bullshyt to me.
there needs to be some criteria to this, you can just go by the top players statistically and metrically, but see, then players like Tyreke and Lou Will can sneak in there and people dont really want to see guys like that in ASG's. I am not saying Reke was an all star but his numbers are good. You throw him out because he is on a shytty team. If he were doing the same thing on Boston's team, he'd be an all star. Now Lou was close to being an All Star...but its politics. Its popularity.
This is why some players have made All NBA teams but not made the ASG
One metric you can say is pretty consistent though is scoring. Like the top 10 leading scorers almost always are in the ASG.
if you say put the next best player in and agree that Kemba is the next best then it is what it is. but in the NBA winning is always the top fukkin criteria until its convenient for it not to be. thats what so much bullshyt to me.
there needs to be some criteria to this, you can just go by the top players statistically and metrically, but see, then players like Tyreke and Lou Will can sneak in there and people dont really want to see guys like that in ASG's. I am not saying Reke was an all star but his numbers are good. You throw him out because he is on a shytty team. If he were doing the same thing on Boston's team, he'd be an all star. Now Lou was close to being an All Star...but its politics. Its popularity.
This is why some players have made All NBA teams but not made the ASG
One metric you can say is pretty consistent though is scoring. Like the top 10 leading scorers almost always are in the ASG.
Ball Handlinng and passing are not the same thing I don’t know who you acquired that “basketball knowledge” from lol ... if this is some personal definition that you are introducing here that’s your own thing ... like I said a point guard doesn’t need to be skip to my Lou to be quality at his position ... like I said does Jamal Crawford qualify as a top tier point guard because he has an elite handle ... and lastly I already conceded to your point that Ben’s descion making hasn’t been as sharp as it needs to be ...but... the tradeoff is that he is going to playmake for others more than Kemba
You're showing your lack of basketball knowledge.
Westbrook leads the leauge in turnovers so if you’re quantitatively evaluating Ben’s ball handling effectiveness by how many turnovers he has per game it would seem pretty silly to then turnaround and praise a guy like Westbrook’s handle when he averages a full turnover per game more than him .... Ben averages the same amount of turnovers as John Wall who many consider to have an elite handle he averages .5 more turnovers than Lillard and Curry Ben is 6th in TOVg the latter three are 7th,10th,12th this illustrates how silly this point you’re harping on is even if we use your all encompassing definition of “ball handling” ability
Again, you're confusing dribbling..
...On the flip side if you are not being quantitative tho and simply going off of what YOU find to be more aesthetically pleasing well with all due respect that’s something I don’t really care about ...as I said this is not the playground I don’t care about your affinity for AND1 leauge moves ...what I care about and what’s important for a point guard is does your handle prohibit you from getting wherever you need to on the court? and does it jeopardize your ability to be the main facilitator for an offense?.... this would be a resounding no on both of ends for these questions regarding Simmons ...and the numbers pretty much show that much.. so as I said his handle is fine
You have some solid points in your argument... this is not one of them ... I would just let it go bruh
This is flatly silly .... he is an all star his perceived “lack of handles” didn’t stop that from happening nor does it stop his ability to run his teams offense ...ironically tho Dragic is also relatively secure with the ball his 12% mark in turnover percentage is the same as Lillard who you say is an elite “ball handler” and his assist percentage is 26% to Kemba’s 27% ...so your flip flopping definition of “Ball Handling” not exclusively meaning and1 dribbling ability is put into question with this answer of course ...and I really don’t have an interest in going thru all of the julezing you’ll likely diploy to explain these inconsistencies in your logic lol
Conversely to your second point JUST having an elite handle ...doesn’t even mean you’re an average player ..let alone an all star caliber one ... again this highlights the non effectiveness of this argument you are making against Ben ... there’s a certain benchmark for handling ability that once you meet as a PG we don’t need to continue to compare that single ability to others because frankly there’s a multitude of ways to get past a defender... your ball handlles are just one of them .. Ben’s physical stature and explosiveness offsets a lot of his need to be an AND1 dribbler in the same way Lebron gets to where he wants because of his physical attributes ....but like I said bruh .. just leave this one alone
All you did in this particular part I quoted was talk about SCORING and how Kemba puts up points in different ways than Ben you talked about Ft shooting/jumpshooting and Kembas ability to put the scoring load on his back... you might want to re-read what you actually wrote in this section ... and I’ll again say what I told you .... for allllllllll of those so called scoring advantages you claim Kemba has over Ben ..their actual efficiency is damn near identical so again like I said this is just not that compelling of a point when we get rid of the noise ... that hero ball shyt isn’t taking the Hornets anywhere... I would say Ben’s instinctual ability to pick his spots and set up his teammates consistently is much more conducive to being an “Overall PG” than just shooting a bunch of shots
Here’s the thing ... teams are already deploying these tactics and Ben is still shooting efficient ...he’s smart enough to not take the bait on uncomfortable shots and instead will eat that given cushion up as a way to get into the lane draw attention to his 6’10” frame and set up a teammate off the help he draws or he has a really effective little half hook shot that he uses when teams deny his penetration to the rim OR he also has shown the ability to take a smaller guard into the post to avoid a defender sagging off ...the kid is not a dumb player and that is what impresses me the most ... it should be damn near impossible for a perimeter player to average 17ppg on that kind of efficiency while being as unconfident a jumpshooter and freethrow shooter as he is ... but if you have a high basketball IQ you can mitigate some of your deficiencies and I don’t think he’s limiting his potential at all ... the jump shot will come with time he obviously doesn’t have to have it right now to be effective no matter how much you guys complain and try to make it sound like the end of the world ... the reality of what’s going on between those lines say otherwise
Woah woah ...what?
First of all this doesn’t make any sense ...you are taking his turnovers and shooting range (not even shooting% which is an actual measure of efficiency) as the sole two dictators of an offenses efficiency while a player is on the court which is of course... puzzling ... to say the least and more importantly is an incorrect application of what I wrote...If ALL he produced were turnovers or even if his turnovers were higher than or equal to his assist while he was on the court than maybe you could have the beginnings of a point about him or any player leading an inefficient offense as there are other things to consider ...but with that said ..what you are bafflingly ignoring is that he’s 6th in the NBA in APG he facilitates an unselfish uptempo inclusive offensive when he’s on the floor and again I’ll repeat to you his shooting efficiency is still fine despite him not being a jumpshooter so I don’t understand how you came to the conclusion that he runs an inefficient offense because of lack of range when he himself isn’t even inefficient ...in fact the teams efg% only raises when he is on the floor vs when he is off the floor ...you nikkas really need to stop thinking that the only way to score is to shoot 3s all day
The Per Player Efficiency Rating
Bruh stop ... you are using PER essentially an offensive statistic to measure a players overall dimensionality LOL and then you acknowledge two sentences latter that it doesn’t even measure an entire side of the ball ...
"Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals."
^^^ This is Hollinger himself explaining that PER is not really for anything more than offense and not balanced offense either (whatever that even means to you) Wall/Westbrook have both been inefficient scoring this year but they are both top 10 in PER ...it’s just primarily about raw output with a slant towards scoring ...this is another REALLY poorly executed point that you are attempting here ....leave it alone bruh ...this entire paragraph should have been left on the cutting room floor
It doesn't take common sense to realize that too many personal foul..
The sixers have the 4th best defense in the leauge and he is a large part of that ...what in the world are you talking about he’s “crippling” them lol
I just explained to you that he unlike his PG contemporaries is asked to guard 1-4 on many occasions and playing closer to the basket is going to generally lead to more potential foul calls
Joel Embiid averages the 2nd most PF/g is he also crippling their defense?
Robert Covington averages the 16th most PF/g is he also crippling their defense?
Ben Simmons is 38th ... he is also lower than Paul George and Giannis (PG being in contention for DPOY)
You are not contextualizing this statistic and it is leading you to make bad points ...PG’s are generally not high on the list of PF/g largely due to the fact that they are not asked to guard players who predominantly operate closest to the basket where the most fouls occur nor do they try to protect the rim ... Ben on the other hand is asked to guard these types of individuals especially Small/Power Fowards which plays a large role when you compare his fouls to most regular PGs as he is asked to defend different kinds of assignments AND in addition to the fact that he unlike most his contemporaries protects the rim his BPG are going to be higher than your typical PG in fact he is 2nd of all PGs in BPG only behind John Wall ...that is context ... you need to understand these things before running with a bad point ... Ben Simmons being 38th in the NBA averaging 2.8 PF/g is in no way impeding the sixers Defense ...this is another really bad half baked point that you should leave alone
Man What?!?
This is some terrible juelzing right here boy ... what YOU were trying to do is make excuses for Kemba by Using his size as a crutch when talking about defense ....and what I said is that Patrick Beverly and Chris Paul are both All DEFENSE players at the same size ....now it’s “well that don’t count ...we talking about all around point guards” nikka stop 1.Kemba is NOT a complete point guard to begin with he’s a scorer and that’s about it and
2.being tall =\= being a good defender
Just like
being 6’1” =\= not being able to defend
/topic
I’m not confusing a damn thing he is SECOND TIER I’m not calling a second tier caliber player “elite” or “top” FOH lol that shyt doesn’t even make sense .... how are you in a class that’s the so called top but then there’s a whole level/group of players above you??? ... that’s not the “top” my nikka lol.... let’s be honest are there even 10 elite PGs in the leauge? .... what does it even mean to be “top 10 point guard”? Now top 10 even top 15/20 overall players in the NBA that’s a distinction but positional top 10? What’s his competition for that spot Mike Conley/Eric Bledsoe those are elite PGs to you also ...Man stop it
He’s clearly Second tier
I’m going to explain it to you one last time
No one is saying Simmons isn't a good defender.
Being tall alone =/= being a good defender (Jahlil Okafor/Enes Kanter/Ryan Anderson/Andrew Wiggins/Doug McDermott/Alfred Payton/James Harden etc etc etc)
Being sub 6’3” =/= you cannot become an all defense player (Tony Allen,Avery Bradley,Chris Paul,Patrick’s Beverly,Mike Conley... etc etc etc)
Why you are still trying to articulate this bad point idk ... let it go bruh ... Ben doesn’t even Guard PG’s the whole game so this exaggerated emphasis on him being THE TALLEST PG EVER!!! is pretty moot when he spends a lot of time guarding SFs/PFs who are closer to his proportions anyways ...being relatively tall can be a great advantage or it can be useless it depends on the skillset of the defender and really having that large of a frame is usually a detriment in trying to stay in front of what should be smaller and quicker players ...so while his size is advantageous in some areas there’s a reason the 6ers don’t run him exclusively on Point Guards all game
I’ll take Ben for now and going foward over a more one dimensional player like Kemba Walker .... you can have that ...Ben is better at nearly every facet of defense ...Kemba does have the edge as far as “jumpshooting” on offense and that’s about where it stops
Kuzma shouldn’t be mentioned. He’s in a slump right now. It’s Simmons or Mitchell..
FreshandClean
All Star
but calling out kemba of all playersY'all beg for players to have an edge and talk shyt again like the old days and then call them arrogant and hate on them when they actually do it
I swear y'all don't know what you want
Ben deserved to be an all star
weak shyt. hornets would literally be worst team in league without kemba
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
Word? What environments is these? Ben is a great talent we don’t need him around street shyt.
Nikka Ben be in North?
He low key punked Marcus Morris too. Ben’s pops is from the South Bronx (Kyrie’s too) and Ben grew up playing rugby in Australia, he got some toughness to him.