How Obama's Shallow Worldview Failed Us

theworldismine13

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:what:You didnt know who they were before IS. The only thing that has changed is that more radical Islamists are in Syria and Iraq, more of them have exposed themselves to our intelligence and we can bomb them using drones now.

i think we are talking about different things, i was referring to western citizens with western passport being a threat, some of those people are being tracked but not all of them

From a domestic terrorism standpoint, this is a strategic win.

it is not a win in any shape or form to have western citizens fighting for isis

This situation has almost zero comparability to the Taliban as we are basically living in two different worlds and you're trying to push that as a justification for why we should've bombed them in the past. Basically, your argument is that any terrorist organization that holds any territory could use that territory to stage further attacks on the US. Essentially, we need to escalate the bombing of at least 5 other countries in the region so that they don't formulate a plot, sneak by and fly a plane into Manhattan again.

we do need to escalate in other countries, that is my point, no terrorist organization should be allowed to hold any territory anywhere in the world at any time

I think you might be smoking crack breh. If you think its reasonable in the post-9/11 world for a jihadi to return to the West with today's intelligence all up in everybody's shyt without anyone noticing and carrying out an attack, then theres not much to talk about here. I would imagine anyone returning from travels in Turkey or whatever other routes these guys are taking are being tagged and monitored.

i think its very possible for a terrorist with a western passport to slip though and engage in terrorism, in fact i think it would be easy as shyt and i dont think all these western citizens are being tracked

As per the bolded, uhhhhhh, isn't that what you are saying? That we shouldve deteriorated their organization through bombing so that they don't carry out attacks here?

we need to bomb them so they dont hold any territory, but bombing is not going to stop somebody with a western passport
 
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i think we are talking about different things, i was referring to western citizens with western passport being a threat, some of those people are being tracked but not all of them



it is not a win in any shape or form to have western citizens fighting for isis



we do need to escalate in other countries, that is my point, no terrorist organization should be allowed to hold any territory anywhere in the world at any time



i think its very possible for a terrorist with a western passport to slip though and engage in terrorism, in fact i think it would be easy as shyt and i dont think all these western citizens are being tracked



we need to bomb them so they dont hold any territory, but bombing is not going to stop somebody with a western passport
I am talking about Westerners too and my point keeps flying over your head. Before IS happened, radical Westerns existed anyway and they were perfectly capable of carrying out attacks. This situation has not changed. What has changed is that more of them have tipped their hand, made themselves known or gone over to the Middle East to fight. Its an equal amount of threats that are easier to deal with now than in the past. The net flow of potential terrorists has clearly been positive in the direction of traveling to the Middle East.

You're making my point basically. If an attack happens, its because someone already had a passport, lived in country and carried it out. Its not going to be because IS captured Aleppo or held some dusty village in Iraq. Playing whack a mole in every country they pop up in is a waste of time if our domestic security is as tight as it is now.
 

theworldismine13

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I am talking about Westerners too and my point keeps flying over your head. Before IS happened, radical Westerns existed anyway and they were perfectly capable of carrying out attacks. This situation has not changed. What has changed is that more of them have tipped their hand, made themselves known or gone over to the Middle East to fight. Its an equal amount of threats that are easier to deal with now than in the past. The net flow of potential terrorists has clearly been positive in the direction of traveling to the Middle East.

You're making my point basically. If an attack happens, its because someone already had a passport, lived in country and carried it out. Its not going to be because IS captured Aleppo or held some dusty village in Iraq. Playing whack a mole in every country they pop up in is a waste of time if our domestic security is as tight as it is now.

not even the people that are in charge of tracking these people agree with your assessment that we are safer from terrorism because more western citizens are flowing to the middle east and joining miltiias, that is the most retarded assessment of that situation that ive read

you are literally saying we are safer from terrorism because hundreds of western citizens are joining isis and other militais and you think that we are going to send drones to get them one by one, you are definitely smoking crack

as to the other point, i am definitely making the point that we need to expand engagement, isis capturing aleppo or some dusty iraqi village is definitely reason for the us to be fully engaged, no terrorist organization should be allowed any territory anywhere in the world, not caring about some dusty village in iraq is the exact mistake that obama made

interesting that nine months after the administration made the mistake of not giving a fuk about a dusty iraq village, you are writing essays about how we dont need to give a fuk about dusty iraqi villages and that we dont need to blame people for mistakes, hmmmm, ok

and this isnt even mentioning the genocide and geo poltical implications of isis taking over "a dusty iraqi village"
 

FaTaL

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i understand it, but its also important to admit mistakes so you dont do it again

what happened with isis is the same thing that happened with the taliban in the 90's, the american government ignored them as a regional threat until it was too late

yea but the question is who started isis, rumors are it was the usa
 

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Dumbass rebublicans and you idiots that follow them :snoop:

Might have to cop me a cream suit
I think I can rock it better than O
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not even the people that are in charge of tracking these people agree with your assessment that we are safer from terrorism because more western citizens are flowing to the middle east and joining miltiias, that is the most retarded assessment of that situation that ive read

you are literally saying we are safer from terrorism because hundreds of western citizens are joining isis and other militais and you think that we are going to send drones to get them one by one, you are definitely smoking crack

as to the other point, i am definitely making the point that we need to expand engagement, isis capturing aleppo or some dusty iraqi village is definitely reason for the us to be fully engaged, no terrorist organization should be allowed any territory anywhere in the world, not caring about some dusty village in iraq is the exact mistake that obama made

interesting that nine months after the administration made the mistake of not giving a fuk about a dusty iraq village, you are writing essays about how we dont need to give a fuk about dusty iraqi villages and that we dont need to blame people for mistakes, hmmmm, ok

and this isnt even mentioning the genocide and geo poltical implications of isis taking over "a dusty iraqi village"
This is a bunch of appeal to authority, "what a retarded assessment", "you must be smoking crack" and "hmmm ok."You literally wrote nothing:dead:

Once again, I was strictly talking about the implications on domestic terrorism and not any geopolitical ramifications of IS capturing territory in Iraq and Syria. They have stepped over the line and obviously need to be beaten back at the moment. Doubling down on the failed aggressive policies of the 2000s is not going to make us any safer and using fearmongering to make it happen is even weaker.
 

theworldismine13

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This is a bunch of appeal to authority, "what a retarded assessment", "you must be smoking crack" and "hmmm ok."You literally wrote nothing:dead:

Once again, I was strictly talking about the implications on domestic terrorism and not any geopolitical ramifications of IS capturing territory in Iraq and Syria. They have stepped over the line and obviously need to be beaten back at the moment. Doubling down on the failed aggressive policies of the 2000s is not going to make us any safer and using fearmongering to make it happen is even weaker.

all i wrote is what you wrote, that you think the fact that westerners joining isis and other militias is a good thing and makes us safer because it makes them easier to track and easier to bomb, and that you have confidence that TSA agents getting $15/hr and CIA agents who failed to predict the rise of isis are going to stop any lone terrorist with a western passport

im not putting words in your mouth, that is what you said
 
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all i wrote is what you wrote, that you think the fact that westerners are going joining isis and other militias is a good thing and makes us safer because it makes them easier to track and easier to bomb, im not putting words in your mouth, that is what you said
Yes, you can read. Well done.

This is very similar to the situation in Iraq. While the invasion was a colossal mistake, all the jihadis in the world flocked to the area to take a shot at American soldiers. The sheer amount of terrorists we killed degraded their ability to carry out any kind of foreign operations. It is when these guys are out in the open that they are less of a direct threat to the West because they are trash militarily compared to our guys. When they are hidden in our cities, we have much less control over the situation.
 

theworldismine13

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Yes, you can read. Well done.

This is very similar to the situation in Iraq. While the invasion was a colossal mistake, all the jihadis in the world flocked to the area to take a shot at American soldiers. The sheer amount of terrorists we killed degraded their ability to carry out any kind of foreign operations. It is when these guys are out in the open that they are less of a direct threat to the West because they are trash militarily compared to our guys. When they are hidden in our cities, we have much less control over the situation.

ok, that is an absurd strategy, thanks for sharing
 

theworldismine13

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:what:Its not a strategy.

You've made no coherent point anywhere in this thread. Its just war hawk, anti-Obama rhetoric.

whatever you call it, it's absurd and completely false, westerners joining militias does not make western countries safer and does not make them easier to track and bomb, that is a ridiculous notion

And why would "war hawk, anti Obama rhetoric" be incoherent, cuz you don't agree with it?
 

theworldismine13

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A President Whose Assurances Have Come Back to Haunt Him

When President Obama addresses the nation on Wednesday to explain his plan to defeat Islamic extremists in Iraq and Syria, it is a fair bet he will not call them the “JV team.”
Nor does he seem likely to describe Iraq as “sovereign, stable and self-reliant” with a “representative government.” And presumably he will not assert after more than a decade of conflict that “the tide of war is receding.”

As he seeks to rally Americans behind a new military campaign in the Middle East, Mr. Obama finds his own past statements coming back to haunt him. Time and again, he has expressed assessments of the world that in the harsh glare of hindsight look out of kilter with the changed reality he now confronts.


In making his speech, Mr. Obama faces the challenge of reconciling those views with the new mission he is presenting to the American public to recommit the armed forces of the United States to the region he tried to leave. Rather than a junior varsity nuisance, he will try to convince Americans that the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria represents a clear threat to national security in a state that is hardly stable. And he will seek to win patience for more war from a public that wishes it really was receding.

To Mr. Obama’s critics, the disparity between the president’s previous statements and today’s reality reflects not simply poorly chosen words but a fundamentally misguided view of the world. Rather than clearly see the persistent dangers as the United States approaches the 13th anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, they said, Mr. Obama perpetually imagines a world as he wishes it were.

“I don’t think it is just loose talk, I think it’s actually revealing talk,” said Peter H. Wehner, a former adviser to President George W. Bush now at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. “Sometimes words are mistakes; they’re just poorly put. But sometimes they’re a manifestation of one’s deep belief in the world and that’s what you really get with President Obama.”

White House officials said the president’s opponents distorted what he said to score political points or hold him responsible for evolving events that were not foreseen. They also say Mr. Obama’s past statements are hardly on a scale of Mr. Bush’s unfounded assertions about Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, not to mention Mr. Bush’s May 2003 speech in front of a banner that said “Mission Accomplished,” meant to signal an end to the major combat in Iraq.

“There is context or facts that explain what the president meant at the time, or things change over the course of time,” said Dan Pfeiffer, a senior adviser to Mr. Obama. “The people who try to beat us up over these things will continue to do so.”

The comment that has caused Mr. Obama the most grief in recent days was his judgment about groups like ISIS. In an interview last winter with David Remnick of The New Yorker, Mr. Obama sought to make the point that not every terrorist group is a threat like Al Qaeda, requiring extraordinary American action.

Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story

“The analogy we use around here sometimes, and I think is accurate, is if a JV team puts on Lakers uniforms, that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” Mr. Obama told Mr. Remnick. He drew a distinction between Al Qaeda and “jihadists who are engaged in various local power struggles and disputes, often sectarian.”

Asked about that by Chuck Todd on “Meet the Press” last weekend, Mr. Obama denied that he necessarily meant ISIS. “Keep in mind I wasn’t specifically referring to ISIL,” he said, using an alternate acronym for the group.

“I’ve said that regionally, there were a whole series of organizations that were focused primarily locally — weren’t focused on homeland, because I think a lot of us, when we think about terrorism, the model is Osama bin Laden and 9/11,” Mr. Obama said. And some groups evolve, he noted. “They’re not a JV team,” he added of ISIS.

But the transcript of the New Yorker interview showed that Mr. Obama made his JV team comment directly after being asked about terrorists in Iraq, Syria and Africa, which would include ISIS. After Mr. Obama’s initial answer, Mr. Remnick pointed out that “that JV team just took over Fallujah,” a city in western Iraq seized by ISIS. Mr. Obama replied that terrorism in many places around the world was not necessarily “a direct threat to us or something that we have to wade into.”

Journalistic organizations like PolitiFact, Factcheck.org and The Washington Post’s Fact Checker all rejected the contention that Mr. Obama was not referring to ISIS when he made his comment about JV teams.

Other statements by Mr. Obama look different today as well. When the president pulled American troops out of Iraq near the end of 2011 against the urging of some Republicans, he said the armed forces were “leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq with a representative government.”

Aides defended the conclusion, saying that was the president’s hope and it was up to the Iraqis to make good on that promise, an opportunity they squandered, leading to the emergence of ISIS as a major threat.

Just a few months before that, Mr. Obama told the United Nations that “the tide of war is receding.” Aides said that statement had to be viewed in the context of two wars fought with hundreds of thousands of American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last 13 years. Even with new airstrikes in Iraq and potentially in Syria, they noted, just a fraction of those troops were still overseas.

Other statements that have come under fire lately include Mr. Obama’s comment setting a “red line” if the government of President Bashar al-Assad used chemical weapons against his people, which he eventually did. Mr. Obama vowed to retaliate but instead accepted a deal to remove and destroy Mr. Assad’s chemical weapons.

Just a month ago, Mr. Obama told Thomas L. Friedman, an op-ed columnist for The New York Times, that it had “always been a fantasy” to think that arming moderate rebels in Syria a few years ago would have made a difference in Syria. But now his emerging strategy for combating ISIS in Syria involves bolstering those same rebels rather than using American ground troops. Aides said Mr. Obama was referring to the rebels as they were three years ago, arguing that they have developed a lot since then.

Either way, Aaron David Miller, author of the forthcoming “The End of Greatness: Why America Can’t Have (and Doesn’t Want) Another Great President,” said Mr. Obama would have a real challenge selling his new approach to the public on Wednesday.

“Presidents rarely persuade through speeches, unless the words are rooted in context that seems real and credible,” Mr. Miller said. “Obama has a problem in this regard because his rhetoric has often gone beyond his capacity to deliver, especially on Syria.”
 
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