Is Nikola Jokic a top 20 player of all time right now?

Is Joker top 20?

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Braman

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Po pimp said:
There are so many other factors than just MVP and Finals MVP. How about DPOY? All NBA and All Defense selections. All Star Berths, etc

This is the shyt that needs to stop. He’s not playing with bums. How many games has Jamal Murray won for them in the playoffs and been their closer? Dude has scored 50+ a few times. The game in which Joker had the 60pt triple double, Gordon scored 30. MPJ is averaging like 18ppg and was once the #1 ranked player in his class.
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This don’t even matter. Players on a historic Ievel are judged by their HOF and all star teammates. Jokic has never had an ALL STR teammate (Murray will finally change that), let alone HOF. So relative to that, Jokic is doing something very few have ever done.

When we talk magic, we talk worthy and Kareem, not Mikal Thompson who was also a former #1 pick. No one says ‘Nah Hakeem had Vernon Maxwell!’ Even tho we know he was nice. There’s levels
 
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Braman said:
This don’t even matter. Players on a historic Ievel are judged by their HOF and all star teammates. Jokic has never had an ALL STR teammate (Murray will finally change that), let alone HOF. So relative to that, Jokic is doing something very few have ever done.

When we talk magic, we talk worthy and Kareem, not Mikal Thompson who was also a former #1 pick. No one says ‘Nah Hakeem had Vernon Maxwell!’ Even tho we know he was nice. There’s levels
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Jamal Murray has been all star level for a while (plus he’s been their closer). The only reason he never made the team is either injuries halting his progression, or the fact that that the West is loaded with all star guards. Murray and Jalen Williams had basically the same numbers last year. Williams became an all star because of OKC’s record being much better than the rest of the competition (even though Denver was the 2 seed).
 
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Braman

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Po pimp said:
Jamal Murray has been all star level for a while (plus he’s been their closer). The only reason he never made the team is either injuries halting his progression, or the fact that that the West is loaded with all star guards. Murray and Jalen Williams had basically the same numbers last year. Williams became an all star because of OKC’s record being much better than the rest of the competition (even though Denver was the 2 seed).
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Preaching to the choir. And again, none of that matters.

History is full of players who were dog nice and just got lost in the shuffle bc it wasn’t immortalized with any accolades. All star nods matter. Bc it’s the league, every star/team had someone who was ‘nice’

And a lot of that is Jamal Murray’s fault bc he clearly took it easy during regular season then turned up for playoffs. The downside is now we look up almost 10 years later and this ngga doesn’t have an all star nod despite clearly being good enough
 
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Squirrel from Meteor Man

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Pseudo said:
Man I thank GOD everyday he's unathletic because he would be having GOAT shouts from whites if he was
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He’s already getting them

One ring, more first and second round exits than not, blew a 20 point lead in a game 7 at home. He’s an all-time great but being white changes the entire narrative.

When Westbrook averaged a triple double for 3 years and put up a 20-20-20 game they called him a stat padder and said triple doubles lost their meaning :francis:
 
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Braman said:
Preaching to the choir. And again, none of that matters.

History is full of players who were dog nice and just got lost in the shuffle bc it wasn’t immortalized with any accolades. All star nods matter. Bc it’s the league, every star/team had someone who was ‘nice’

And a lot of that is Jamal Murray’s fault bc he clearly took it easy during regular season then turned up for playoffs. The downside is now we look up almost 10 years later and this ngga doesn’t have an all star nod despite clearly being good enough
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But part of your argument for elevating Jokic is that he never played with All Stars. Everyone knows Murray and Gordon are all star caliber. He’s not playing with bums. Last two playoff elimination games were blowing a 20pt 4th quarter lead to the Wolves, and when OKC put Caruso on him. I’m not one of these people who say Caruso locked him up, but they couldn’t figure it out.
 
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Po pimp said:
But part of your argument for elevating Jokic is that he never played with All Stars. Everyone knows Murray and Gordon are all star caliber. He’s not playing with bums. Last two playoff elimination games were blowing a 20pt 4th quarter lead to the Wolves, and when OKC put Caruso on him. I’m not one of these people who say Caruso locked him up, but they couldn’t figure it out.
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To me it's two different talking points ppl tend to have. Mind you, the true measure of someone like Shaq for me was '95 and '96 when he was going blow for blow with peak Hakeem, DRob, Ewing leading his team to the Finals/ECFs... and not '00-'02 where yes he 3-peated but was less focused, more out of shape, yet his team was stacked, Bulls disbanded, and all the 90s centers were washed so it didn't matter.

I made a point few years back that of this Giannis/Jokic/Embiid/Shai/Luka era, the parity will cannabalize their greatness bc all ppl care about is the final ring total and not the context. That is: with exceptions, you stack rings with stacked teams. i.e. Magic and Kareem are commonly top 5-6 GOATs... both have 5 titles but got most of them teaming up with each other. Shaq and Kobe commonly top 10 GOATs, 4 and 5 rings each but they 3-peated together. Curry now seen as top 10, he got 4 rings... two with a guy who'd also be top 10 and (ironically) would still be ahead of Steph if he'd stayed to stack rings with Step. lol.

Murray, Gordon, Dubb, Chet, Middleton, Jrue... are all all-star level even if they don't get the recognition, but obviously a Jokic+Shai or Giannis+Ant duo would be the type of bullshyt Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe, Curry/Durant had in principle. History shows that's how you really stack rings, with exceptions.

Now bc exceptions exist, that's not an excuse for not winning multiple. Reg season Jokic is as great or better than any we've ever seen, playoffs are more of a struggle and he often gets a pass/teammates thrown under the bus by the media probably bc he's white... but to be fair we've seen Shaq and Lebron's playoff struggles and media/fanboys often threw their teammates under the bus too.
 
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