Is This Infrastructure Really Necessary?

DEAD7

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Is This Infrastructure Really Necessary?
March 20, 2019 2:36PM



The United States has “at least $232 billion in critical public transportation” needs, claims the American Public Transportation Association (APTA). Among the “critically needed” infrastructure on APTA’s list are a streetcar in downtown Los Angeles, another one in downtown Sacramento (which local voters have rejected), one in Tempe, and streetcar extensions in Tampa and Kansas City.

Get real: even ardent transit advocates admit that streetcars are stupid. The economic development benefits that supposedly come from streetcars are purely imaginary, and even if they weren’t, it would be hard to describe streetcars – whose average speed, APTA admits, is less than 7.5 miles per hour – as “critically needed.”

Much of the nation’s transit infrastructure is falling apart, and the Department of Transportation has identified $100 billion of infrastructure backlog needs. (Page l – that is, Roman numeral 50 – of the report indicates a backlog of $89.9 billion in 2012 dollars. Converting to 2019 dollars brings this up to $100 billion.) Yet APTA’s “critical needs” list includes only $24 billion worth of “state of good repair” projects. Just about all of the other “needs” listed – $142 billion worth – are new projects or extensions of existing projects.

In fact, few if any of these new projects are “needed” – they are simply transit agency wish lists. For example, it includes $6 billion for phase 2 of New York’s Second Avenue Subway, but no money for rehabilitating New York’s existing, and rapidly deteriorating, subway system. Similarly, it includes $140 million for a new transitway in Alexandria, Virginia, but no money for rehabilitating the DC area’s also rapidly deteriorating Metrorail system. (In case anyone is interested, I’ve converted APTA’s project list into a spreadsheet for easy review and calculations.)

The $166 billion total on APTA’s “Project Examples” list is less than the $232 billion APTA says is needed, but even if all of the difference is “state of good repair” projects, that difference plus the $24 billion on APTA’s list doesn’t add up to what the DOT says is needed to restore transit infrastructure. This shows that even APTA doesn’t take public safety and “crumbling infrastructure” seriously.

I’ve previously pointed out that the best-maintained infrastructure is funded out of user fees. For example, Federal Highway Administration data show that only 2.9 percent of toll bridges are “structurally deficient,” compared with 5.5 percent of state-owned bridges funded mainly out of gas taxes and 12.2 percent of locally-owned bridges that are funded mainly out of general tax dollars. Gas taxes are a user fee, so state bridges are better maintained than local bridges, but tolls are an even better user fee so toll-funded bridges are in the best shape.

Politicians allow infrastructure funded out of tax dollars to deteriorate because they would rather spend money on new projects than maintain old ones. APTA’s list simply confirms this: APTA is trying to entice politicians into funding all sorts of new projects rather than maintain the existing ones that are falling apart.

To justify this spending, APTA claims that transit produces $4 in economic benefits for every $1 spent. This is based on a report prepared for APTA in 2009. This report includes two kinds of benefits from transit spending.

First, when anyone spends money on anything, the recipients of that money turn around and spends it again. That’s called “indirect” or “secondary” benefits. Spending money on digging holes and filling them up would produce similar secondary spending. That doesn’t mean the government should pay people to dig holes and fill them up (although that’s really what it’s doing for many rail transit projects). For one thing, if government didn’t spend that money, there would be more money in the hands of taxpayers, who would spend it, generating just as many secondary benefits.

Second, the study counts cost savings to transit riders and other travelers, such as the savings from not having to own a car, from getting to destinations faster, or from congestion relief. But transit costs far more and travels far slower than automobiles; there is no cost or time savings from substituting expensive, slow methods of transportation for inexpensive, fast methods of transportation. Transit also does not provide a significant amount of congestion relief; in fact, large buses, streetcars, light rail, and commuter trains that have many grade crossings often do more to increase congestion than reduce it.

The study’s arguments are even less plausible today, when transit ridership is shrinking, than they were in 2009, when transit ridership had been growing. Charlotte, Los Angeles, and Portland recently spent hundreds of millions or billions on new light-rail lines or light-rail extensions, yet transit ridership in those regions dropped after the new lines opened. There is no way that can that be good for transit riders or other travelers.

APTA’s wish-list is just one more reason why Congress should only pass an infrastructure bill if it is one that is funded exclusively out of user fees. An infrastructure bill funded out of tax dollars or deficit spending would impose huge costs on taxpayers in order to build unnecessary projects that we won’t be able to afford to maintain.


Is This Infrastructure Really Necessary?
 

DonFrancisco

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Is This Infrastructure Really Necessary?
March 20, 2019 2:36PM



The United States has “at least $232 billion in critical public transportation” needs, claims the American Public Transportation Association (APTA). Among the “critically needed” infrastructure on APTA’s list are a streetcar in downtown Los Angeles, another one in downtown Sacramento (which local voters have rejected), one in Tempe, and streetcar extensions in Tampa and Kansas City.

Get real: even ardent transit advocates admit that streetcars are stupid. The economic development benefits that supposedly come from streetcars are purely imaginary, and even if they weren’t, it would be hard to describe streetcars – whose average speed, APTA admits, is less than 7.5 miles per hour – as “critically needed.”

Much of the nation’s transit infrastructure is falling apart, and the Department of Transportation has identified $100 billion of infrastructure backlog needs. (Page l – that is, Roman numeral 50 – of the report indicates a backlog of $89.9 billion in 2012 dollars. Converting to 2019 dollars brings this up to $100 billion.) Yet APTA’s “critical needs” list includes only $24 billion worth of “state of good repair” projects. Just about all of the other “needs” listed – $142 billion worth – are new projects or extensions of existing projects.

In fact, few if any of these new projects are “needed” – they are simply transit agency wish lists. For example, it includes $6 billion for phase 2 of New York’s Second Avenue Subway, but no money for rehabilitating New York’s existing, and rapidly deteriorating, subway system. Similarly, it includes $140 million for a new transitway in Alexandria, Virginia, but no money for rehabilitating the DC area’s also rapidly deteriorating Metrorail system. (In case anyone is interested, I’ve converted APTA’s project list into a spreadsheet for easy review and calculations.)

The $166 billion total on APTA’s “Project Examples” list is less than the $232 billion APTA says is needed, but even if all of the difference is “state of good repair” projects, that difference plus the $24 billion on APTA’s list doesn’t add up to what the DOT says is needed to restore transit infrastructure. This shows that even APTA doesn’t take public safety and “crumbling infrastructure” seriously.

I’ve previously pointed out that the best-maintained infrastructure is funded out of user fees. For example, Federal Highway Administration data show that only 2.9 percent of toll bridges are “structurally deficient,” compared with 5.5 percent of state-owned bridges funded mainly out of gas taxes and 12.2 percent of locally-owned bridges that are funded mainly out of general tax dollars. Gas taxes are a user fee, so state bridges are better maintained than local bridges, but tolls are an even better user fee so toll-funded bridges are in the best shape.

Politicians allow infrastructure funded out of tax dollars to deteriorate because they would rather spend money on new projects than maintain old ones. APTA’s list simply confirms this: APTA is trying to entice politicians into funding all sorts of new projects rather than maintain the existing ones that are falling apart.

To justify this spending, APTA claims that transit produces $4 in economic benefits for every $1 spent. This is based on a report prepared for APTA in 2009. This report includes two kinds of benefits from transit spending.

First, when anyone spends money on anything, the recipients of that money turn around and spends it again. That’s called “indirect” or “secondary” benefits. Spending money on digging holes and filling them up would produce similar secondary spending. That doesn’t mean the government should pay people to dig holes and fill them up (although that’s really what it’s doing for many rail transit projects). For one thing, if government didn’t spend that money, there would be more money in the hands of taxpayers, who would spend it, generating just as many secondary benefits.

Second, the study counts cost savings to transit riders and other travelers, such as the savings from not having to own a car, from getting to destinations faster, or from congestion relief. But transit costs far more and travels far slower than automobiles; there is no cost or time savings from substituting expensive, slow methods of transportation for inexpensive, fast methods of transportation. Transit also does not provide a significant amount of congestion relief; in fact, large buses, streetcars, light rail, and commuter trains that have many grade crossings often do more to increase congestion than reduce it.

The study’s arguments are even less plausible today, when transit ridership is shrinking, than they were in 2009, when transit ridership had been growing. Charlotte, Los Angeles, and Portland recently spent hundreds of millions or billions on new light-rail lines or light-rail extensions, yet transit ridership in those regions dropped after the new lines opened. There is no way that can that be good for transit riders or other travelers.

APTA’s wish-list is just one more reason why Congress should only pass an infrastructure bill if it is one that is funded exclusively out of user fees. An infrastructure bill funded out of tax dollars or deficit spending would impose huge costs on taxpayers in order to build unnecessary projects that we won’t be able to afford to maintain.


Is This Infrastructure Really Necessary?


Dedicated bus lanes and small fix route district buses are better than street cars.
 

Jutt

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Dedicated bus lanes and small fix route district buses are better than street cars.
Dedicated bus lanes have been a huge topic here in Boston for the last few years. They're finally starting to roll it out during rush hour.

It worked in Curitiba, Brazil and a lot of American cities could learn from the urban renewal project there.
 

FlimFlam

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Racism effects everything, even this

During the suburbanization of america, local and federal governments strategically divested in said infrastructure (and or outright destroyed it...chicago used to have street cars as well, ask your parents ) to reroute the respective maintenance/improvement funds into the creating and paving streets / highways etc of WHITE suburbs.

And the siphoning of taxes was egregious....taxes collected in the Bronx could and would be rerouted to somewhere far like Syracuse to fund they (white) shyt. Outright criminal

This a very rough and superficial account of why our cities public transportation is shyt...but its most def something to look further into if interested...i was like goddamn when i came across it

And they sanitize it by labeling it "white flight"....hey white people just up n left !...nall the govt took on a very ambitious and financially burdensome campaign to relocate white people and allow american cities at large to atrophy, cause thats where the nigras at so who cares

Long story short; they did it to themselves
Race built this country and its undoing it.
 

Sbp

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Racism effects everything, even this

During the suburbanization of america, local and federal governments strategically divested in said infrastructure (and or outright destroyed it...chicago used to have street cars as well, ask your parents ) to reroute the respective maintenance/improvement funds into the creating and paving streets / highways etc of WHITE suburbs.

And the siphoning of taxes was egregious....taxes collected in the Bronx could and would be rerouted to somewhere far like Syracuse to fund they (white) shyt. Outright criminal

This a very rough and superficial account of why our cities public transportation is shyt...but its most def something to look further into if interested...i was like goddamn when i came across it

And they sanitize it by labeling it "white flight"....hey white people just up n left !...nall the govt took on a very ambitious and financially burdensome campaign to relocate white people and allow american cities at large to atrophy, cause thats where the nigras at so who cares

Long story short; they did it to themselves
Race built this country and its undoing it.
Bro I don't know if we need to start a New Thread on this subject or what but I would love to run it with you and other brothers who are well versed on this topic.
 

FlimFlam

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Bro I don't know if we need to start a New Thread on this subject or what but I would love to run it with you and other brothers who are well versed on this topic.

Man, im not versed on the subject...i jus stumbled upon that information and looked a little further into it and was taken aback

My introduction to this information was a few fleeting paragraphs within the way we never were by stephanie c00ntz....crabgrass frontier (the suburbunization of the United states) by kenneth jackson can shed some light as well

shyt like this has to be pieced together because needless to say most texts arent written from a black perspective or with black regard....these details were buried within some books and articles i read and they jumped out at me...jus some of the nuances of new deal politics, post ww2 american life , civil rights etc

Not opposed to a thread though...im jus no authority figure:laugh:
 
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Jutt

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Bro I don't know if we need to start a New Thread on this subject or what but I would love to run it with you and other brothers who are well versed on this topic.
I'm decently versed in this. Its essentially a cousin of redlining, but with infrastructure projects. Neighborhoods were completely leveled for the sole purpose of building the interstate highway systems. They'd basically cut off a neighborhood with a brand new highway and one side would flourish while the other would suffer. This amplified the white flight epidemic as well, it pretty much fueled it because it gave white folks the excuse to leave the "slums" where they worked. I'd have to dig up my research and some articles but this and redlining and other urban development stuff have been a big part of my studies.
 

DonFrancisco

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For those who are interested, here's a quick "old" video that explains the Curitiba bus system. At the time they had some radical ideas but it ended up benefitting the city in the long run.


Currently Houston is building a rapid bus transit over Post Oak Blvd ( essentially Houston 2nd downtown)
 

newworldafro

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No endless wars is more important.

Indeed. :snoop:

I absolutely agree some of these older systems need upgrades, but more cities are densifying and a public rail system is part of the solution to traffic congestion in some places. It's not only about now, it's looking a few decades in the future too.

People who drive cars complain about traffic...ok well there are various solutions:
  • ok expanding lanes until you have what a 40 lane highway?
  • ok well there is transit network using buses and rail
  • ok there is upgrading sidewalks and bicycle lanes
  • There is also better land use, so at major nodes you have mixed use developments, which is really what makes transit work.
  • Uber has actually probably hurt public transit more than anything, with public transit and even bicycling commuters decreased
Now Uber is developing a Vertical Takeoff and Landing (VTOL) quadrocopter passenger drone in Dallas and L.A. They are working with NASA and FAA to develop the necessary regulations/flight paaterns, etc it would take to build a local, regional, nationwide network of passenger drones...so yes it is all important.



 
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Jutt

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They thought Lerner was crazy because he shut down the city center to cars when at the time they were considering widening all the roads to accommodate the traffic.

Which leads me to this thought/worry. Most infastructure projects here include widening roads, but that seems to only be a bandaid. Here in Boston and pretty much across the metro area, theres a push to widen the highways first, and then fix the transit system, but that to me is just fixing a symptom. There has to be an incentive to have less cars on the roads. They're proposing a higher rush hour toll to help fix this, but ultimately i don't think it's gonna affect the number of cars/ people on the roads.
 
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