Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

[Jmare007]

It started after his 2011 CMLL excursion I believe, and it was like a year long transformation. If you look at him between August 2011 and August 2012, you get two very different perspectives on what the Nakamura character is. Personally, I think his 2011 is kind of underrated, as he was having some excellent matches around that time (I'm thinking specifically of his title matches with Tanahashi, as well as the G1 Final vs Naito). But it's gotten overshadowed by everything he's done from 2012 onward, so nobody really revisits how fukking good and consistent he was this year.

And agreed with both of you on the NOAH stuff. I specifically remember liking Go a HELL of a lot more in NJPW than I did in NOAH at the time, to the point that I was hoping against hope that he'd make the jump and get away from NOAH's slowly sinking ship.

Yup, 2011 was the trip to Mexico that started it all.

I remember really not liking Nakamura up until he lost the belt to Mutoh. I always associated a character change after that but to honest I might be mixing my timelines up.

I do know he became way more fun to watch from late 09' going forward. Then again I might be misremembering and that switch might've been after he lost the belt in 2010?

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Yup, 2011 was the trip to Mexico that started it all.

I remember really not liking Nakamura up until he lost the belt to Mutoh. I always associated a character change after that but to honest I might be mixing my timelines up.

I do know he became way more fun to watch from late 09' going forward. Then again I might be misremembering and that switch might've been after he lost the belt in 2010?

He lost to Mutoh in 08, Strong Style Revival was 09.

 

[Jmare007]

He lost to Mutoh in 08, Strong Style Revival was 09.

Right, that makes sense

 

[HollywoodP]

Nakamura is by far the most accomplished male Japanese wrestler ever in the U.S.

Thats a whole seperate argument. True or not...let me expound on my original point. Naito has main evented NJPW biggest show twice (3 times if you consider co-main events) not to mention countless others. Has Nakamura had ANY main events since moving to the main roster? NJPW made Naito the first double IWGP champ and given him damn near every belt in the companies history. Regardless if he's been given long reigns (for those of you who cant seem to grasp the concept of a babyface being better chasing a title than defending it). You think Naito losing his belt is bad booking...Nakamura lost the US title to R-Truth. Now i respect Truth but he aint never been booked strong in WWE. Naito won the most prestigious tournament in pro wrestling twice (also the NJ cup 1x). Nakamura wins the Rumble but doesnt get a chance to main event Mania like every other winner in recent history. Naito gets his own stable which has been one of... if not thee biggest stables in the company for a few years. Nakamura gets lumped with Sami Zayn and Cesaro in a stable that doesnt even have a name...where he's not even the leader...that eventually turned into a tag team. Naito has towels and teddy bears and hats and shirts for sale...whens the last time Nakamura got new merch....I dont even know what Nakamuras shirt looks like. Ya'll nikkas take your hate for Gedos booking to ridiculous levels.

 

[Jmare007]

Thats a whole seperate argument. True or not...let me expound on my original point. Naito has main evented NJPW biggest show twice (3 times if you consider co-main events) not to mention countless others. Has Nakamura had ANY main events since moving to the main roster? NJPW made Naito the first double IWGP champ and given him damn near every belt in the companies history. Regardless if he's been given long reigns (for those of you who cant seem to grasp the concept of a babyface being better chasing a title than defending it). You think Naito losing his belt is bad booking...Nakamura lost the US title to R-Truth. Now i respect Truth but he aint never been booked strong in WWE. Naito won the most prestigious tournament in pro wrestling twice (also the NJ cup 1x). Nakamura wins the Rumble but doesnt get a chance to main event Mania like every other winner in recent history. Naito gets his own stable which has been one of... if not thee biggest stables in the company for a few years. Nakamura gets lumped with Sami Zayn and Cesaro in a stable that doesnt even have a name...where he's not even the leader...that eventually turned into a tag team. Naito has towels and teddy bears and hats and shirts for sale...whens the last time Nakamura got new merch....I dont even know what Nakamuras shirt looks like. Ya'll nikkas take your hate for Gedos booking to ridiculous levels.

all I said was that kayfabe wise (which still means a fukk ton in Japan, specially regarding US wrestling) there was an argument.

You can pokes wholes at a bunch of those accomplishments from Naito too btw but why bother tbh, I don't wanna play devil's advocate for WWE's horrible booking.

Just want to say

Regardless if he's been given long reigns (for those of you who cant seem to grasp the concept of a babyface being better chasing a title than defending it)..

What chase are we even talking about? Naito didn't chase shyt for 90% of the last 2 years. He got a huge W on a huge double show this year but get the fukk out of here with "chase" there was no angle and certainly no feud that kept him going after the big belt up until late last year. He got handed random IC title shots and IC title reigns out of nowhere to keep him relevant (kayfabe wise, which again, is important still in puro) and all of a sudden he was in the middle of a 4 men tournament for the chance of being double champ.

And if he gets the belt back at SS, how would that qualify as a "chase"? He didn't even have to fight hard to get a rematch

 

[stro]

Naito's booking has been this for 5 years:

Most popular guy on the roster
Loses every big match
Get a title
Do one defense
Drop it back to whoever you won it from
Repeat

At no point was he ever treated like the top guy, even when he had the IWGP Championship. His title runs have been nothing, he's always on the back burner. His booking has been so shytty that his gimmick has essentially been, "my booking is so shytty, fukk it" for years. He loses to dudes way below him on the pecking order and popularity scale. He's been stuck getting a feud with Taichi for the past 3 years in a row


Nakamura got treated like an absolutely superstar in NXT and when he first came up, clean wins over Orton and Cena, etc. While he has never won the main title, he has "main evented" WM, he won the Rumble, he's won the mid card titles and tag titles (which is pretty much what he was doing in NJ by the time he left tbh). He lost one single match as a face clean and it was part of his heel turn. As a heel, he almost never loses. I'm pretty sure the only guy on the roster the entire time Nak has been on the main roster to have more than one clean victory over him is Braun. Nak is the most protected non main eventer in the company.

 

[HollywoodP]

Naito's booking has been this for 5 years:

Most popular guy on the roster
Loses every big match
Get a title
Do one defense
Drop it back to whoever you won it from
Repeat

At no point was he ever treated like the top guy, even when he had the IWGP Championship. His title runs have been nothing, he's always on the back burner. His booking has been so shytty that his gimmick has essentially been, "my booking is so shytty, fukk it" for years. He loses to dudes way below him on the pecking order and popularity scale. He's been stuck getting a feud with Taichi for the past 3 years in a row


Nakamura got treated like an absolutely superstar in NXT and when he first came up, clean wins over Orton and Cena, etc. While he has never won the main title, he has "main evented" WM, he won the Rumble, he's won the mid card titles and tag titles (which is pretty much what he was doing in NJ by the time he left tbh). He lost one single match as a face clean and it was part of his heel turn. As a heel, he almost never loses. I'm pretty sure the only guy on the roster the entire time Nak has been on the main roster to have more than one clean victory over him is Braun. Nak is the most protected non main eventer in the company.

-He's had 2 reigns...count em...two. One he beat Okada for...defended successfully against Ishii defending it unsuccessfully against Okada. So while it may seem like it...that one defense arguement simply isn't true. Maybe you have a different definition of what a defense is. Even if you don't think his 2 reigns were enough. They were still 2 more than Nakamura has gotten.
-He beat Jay White and then Okada at WK night 1 and 2...so that "Loses every big match" shyt is a straight up laughable false narrative. Plus he won at least 5 big ones for the IC title. And at least 3 big ones at the G1 and the NJ cup.
-He successfully defended the belt against Kenta...was set to defend it against Hiromu and then Covid happened. Then he unsuccessfully defended it against Evil...not the person he won it against. So there goes that lie.
-If third to last match...the one right before Braun Stroman and a child won the tag titles is what you consider Nakamura "main eventing Wrestlemania"...then yeah he "main evented WM". I don't know what your mindset was with that statement...but its wrong.
-Most popular guy on the roster? Clearly to YOU... that's true. I'm sure Okada and Tanahashi would give him a run in whatever logical way one could use to measure popularity. Personally, you may be right about that...But Naito being one of the most popular wrestlers in NJPW says it all...Nakamura has never come close to being placed in that position in WWE. Being top guy in developmental doesn't put him on the level of Reigns, Cena, AJ, Rollins, etc. Being a protected non-main eventer...is not the same as being a main eventer. Earning a title shot...is not the same as winning a title. Cut the bs.

That other ridiculous shyt you said is just your opinion cuz Gedo isn't booking your hero how you want him to, so let me cut to the chase. Setting "playing devils advocate" to the side... If you honestly believe WWE has treated Nakamura as a bigger deal than NJPW has Naito...you're a moron. And I'm done debating with you...but hey...don't let facts get in your way. Continue on..

 

[23Barrettcity]

Mixed response... still too early to say


Hey, how have you been friend?

I been good man staying safe . Essential worker thankfully I am high up so I mostly been working ftom home but March in nyc was like a horror movie

 

[HollywoodP]

What chase are we even talking about? Naito didn't chase shyt for 90% of the last 2 years. He got a huge W on a huge double show this year but get the fukk out of here with "chase" there was no angle and certainly no feud that kept him going after the big belt up until late last year. He got handed random IC title shots and IC title reigns out of nowhere to keep him relevant (kayfabe wise, which again, is important still in puro) and all of a sudden he was in the middle of a 4 men tournament for the chance of being double champ.

And if he gets the belt back at SS, how would that qualify as a "chase"? He didn't even have to fight hard to get a rematch

When I say "chasing a title" I mean it loosely not literally. Not confronting the champion at every turn. not challenging for it 50 times like John Cena. I mean in the traditional wrestling sense as opposed to having some babyface version of the Reing of Terror. I realize he was having his IC reigns and Okada was having his historic reign...but I'm talking beating people in matches so they can try to work their way towards a title shot...like he challenged Tanahashi for his 2015 G1/WK contract...like when he won the 2016 NJ Cup for the chance to challenge for Okada's title...Like participating in the 2016 G1 for a chance at the WK contract...like calling out the champ Okada (and Tanahashi) when he won MVP...Like winning the 2017 G1 for a chance at the WK main event...like participating in the 2018 G1 for a chance at the WK main event...like participating in the 2019 G1 for a chance at the WK main event...like he brought to fruition by bringing up becoming the first IWGP double champ. That wasn't "random" or "all of a sudden". There was talks for months between all the top guys involved in the IC and the Heavyweight title picture after what happened in the G1 and Power Struggle. This aint WWE...That is as close to an angle that you are going to get in NJPW.

 

[Jmare007]

When I say "chasing a title" I mean it loosely not literally. Not confronting the champion at every turn. not challenging for it 50 times like John Cena. I mean in the traditional wrestling sense as opposed to having some babyface version of the Reing of Terror. I realize he was having his IC reigns and Okada was having his historic reign...but I'm talking beating people in matches so they can try to work their way towards a title shot...like he challenged Tanahashi for his 2015 G1/WK contract...like when he won the 2016 NJ Cup for the chance to challenge for Okada's title...Like participating in the 2016 G1 for a chance at the WK contract...like calling out the champ Okada (and Tanahashi) when he won MVP...Like winning the 2017 G1 for a chance at the WK main event...like participating in the 2018 G1 for a chance at the WK main event...like participating in the 2019 G1 for a chance at the WK main event...like he brought to fruition by bringing up becoming the first IWGP double champ. That wasn't "random" or "all of a sudden". There was talks for months between all the top guys involved in the IC and the Heavyweight title picture after what happened in the G1 and Power Struggle. This aint WWE...That is as close to an angle that you are going to get in NJPW.

I feel like you are not reading what I'm posting and just arguing against shyt other people say

I agree that the 4-men unification tournament was an angle, I said multiple times here that it was the best idea Gedo had in years btw. That why I said "there was no angle and certainly no feud that kept him going after the big belt up until late last year". I consider September to December, the later parts of a year.

Every native New Japan heavyweight is part of the G-1, that's not "chasing". That's just being a midcarder or above in status. In Naito's case, a main eventer. I'm not arguing against that. All I'm arguing against is this:

Regardless if he's been given long reigns (for those of you who cant seem to grasp the concept of a babyface being better chasing a title than defending it)..

None of what you just posted applies to this. You said it's about "beating people in matches so they can try to work their way towards a title shot". My main point is that from WK 12 till after the 2019 G-1, Naito was put in random positions to stay as a relevant main eventer (kayfabe wise), not any sort of long term story or angle or feud that was justified not having the main belt at a time he was the most over guy in the company AND a proven draw.

If anything, he was kept around the IC title scene because they needed him to main event shows in title matches. If he "chased" anything it was that belt...even though most of his challenges came out of nowhere in "it's my turn" type of way.

This is a different situation from him having a transitional reign the first time, that was a different context and circumstance and they actually built to his journey up until WK12. The only argument there is that his journey should've culminated at WK 11 as the better payoff, but Omega's push and success justified that 1 year wait, in a sense.

 

[stro]

I was also talking about his IC reigns, which he won and lost 4 times in under 2 years. Dropping it to Jericho, winning it back from Jericho, dropping it to Ibushi, winning it back from Ibushi, dropping it to White, winning it back from White. 2 of those reigns didn't have a single successful defense. He spent all of 2018 and 2019 just flip flopping the secondary title just to give him something to do to headline B shows.

 

[The Rainmaker]

Today's NJ main event Two old grumpy wrestlers battling it out. What a match.

They haven't mentioned the NEVER openweight six man tag titles since the Ingobernables split. No one cares about those titles, not even the company.

 

[The Rainmaker]

 

[DaylitoJames]

If someone from Bullet Club don't win this....

 

[TheGodling]

KENTA, Jeff Cobb, David Finlay, Tama Tonga semi finals I guess. Jeff Cobb vs KENTA for the finals with intervention from Tama Tonga and Tanga Loa.