Jay -Z being the undisputed goat is a narrative created by the corporations he works for

[Cladyclad]

I still feel like Jay Z subs never stuck against 50, nor to the fans was subs like that gonna do much against someone like 50. You rarely of ever hear the two other verses you mentioned brought up. Especially considering one of them from the album Kingdom Come was considered not good at the time of release.

Even rap genius said that bar about getting shot could apply to like 3 or 4 rappers Jay had problems with at the time

Everyone knows the "I'm about a dollar" bar and I guess you can include the watch me drop 50 bar as okay, he acknowledged 50, but when we consider in hindsight 50 Cent would reinvent the meaning of rap beef, are these really that scalding?

But okay man lol. I guess you've proved he never ducked 50, but it does feel underwhelming. Especially in hindsight.

The article I think adds to the argument and suggestion Jay Z not aging well or being the GOAT isn't a wild take. Only to y'all HOVengers. Respectfully

Once again if he were to drop he doing better than 99% of rappers

how is that possible if he ain’t age well?


the last time he sold under 400k first week was 1998 lol

and that album is his highest selling album ever at 6 million sold

so please how is possible a almost 60 year old man music will be anticipated like that if his music didn’t age wel?

 

[TheOptimisticCynikal]

the last time he sold under 400k first week was 1998 lol

What? We just established 4:44 did well under that and maybe solo albums you might have an argument, but I think in a previous post I said I try not compare sales from different eras because music industry was very different back then far as how music is consumed and how that consumption is measured.

Y'all wanna cling onto album sales like this man wasn't the whole president of a record label and snaked his own partners for the corporate Jews like Lyor. You think Jay didn't get the full backing of the industry and all the tricks and stimulants they use to cook numbers, especially during the President of Def Jam days? fukk album sale numbers. They don't play Kingdom Come and that's his best selling album more or less.

Mans did deals with Sprint and Samsung (Maga Carter Holy Grail and 4:44) to guarantee sales which thank God didn't count towards first week numbers. That's how I know that whole "if he dropped today he'd outsell everyone" argument is BS because even in the man's own actions he's not sure he can sell the same amount.

Next wild take (to y'all but not really because they use this same argument in the Jordan vs Lebron debates): Any big artist either in the Big 3 or whose name has been suggested to go in the Big 3 would do similar numbers as Jay Z in the 90s if they had the level of fame they have now back then.

Napster changed the game forever but y'all don't wanna acknowledged that and wanna compare album sales from literally two decades ago to now.



Edit: Jay album would be anticipated by me and a bunch of other fans because of his name and to see if he lives up to the hype. That doesn't mean he aged well, but his name still garners eyes. Being Beyonce's husband and the Carter family brand will do that as well

 

[Cladyclad]

What? We just established 4:44 did well under that and maybe solo albums you might have an argument, but I think in a previous post I said I try not compare sales from different eras because music industry was very different back then far as how music is consumed and how that consumption is measured.

Y'all wanna cling onto album sales like this man wasn't the whole president of a record label and snaked his own partners for the corporate Jews like Lyor. You think Jay didn't get the full backing of the industry and all the tricks and stimulants they use to cook numbers, especially during the President of Def Jam days? fukk album sale numbers. They don't play Kingdom Come and that's his best selling album more or less.

Mans did deals with Sprint and Samsung (Maga Carter Holy Grail and 4:44) to guarantee sales which thank God didn't count towards first week numbers. That's how I know that whole "if he dropped today he'd outsell everyone" argument is BS because even in the man's own actions he's not sure he can sell the same amount.

Next wild take (to y'all but not really because they use this same argument in the Jordan vs Lebron debates): Any big artist either in the Big 3 or whose name has been suggested to go in the Big 3 would do similar numbers as Jay Z in the 90s if they had the level of fame they have now back then.

Napster changed the game forever but y'all don't wanna acknowledged that and wanna compare album sales from literally two decades ago to now.

shyt was 2017 and jay z never released a “free” album. Meaning debuting on Spotify day and date

Dame Biggs Jay end goal was to always sell rocafella. Jay just stop doing business with them after they achieved their goal.

kingom come is not jay best selling album. Unless u mean highest selling first week.

you just said the sales don’t count towards first week yet he still did over 500k (magna carta) and 262k (444 didnt have a 1st week)

 

[TheOptimisticCynikal]

kingom come is not jay best selling album. Unless u mean highest selling first week.

Appreciate this correction. It underlines that first week sales don't dictate quality or can qualify if music aged well. Just means it had the hype at the time.
I'll use an argument against Future to underline this. What A Time To Be Alive sold 375,000 units in its first week, securing the No. 1 spot on the Billboard 200, according to Wikipedia. However, in the second week, sales plummeted to 65,000 copies, representing an 81% decrease. This drop is sometimes cited as one of the most significant second-week drops for a hip-hop album that debuted at #1.

First week sales are based off hype, industry backing or good marketing. It's more to indicate relevancy at the time if anything or anticipation an artist has from fans. A hip hop legend who is often put in GOAT conversations who only drops every few years will be greatly anticipated and particularly as it concerns Jay Z with his Beyonce stimulus, he'll always have relevancy. That doesn't mean him as an artist aged well.

shyt was 2017 and jay z never released a “free” album. Meaning debuting on Spotify day and date

But didn't you say last time he sold under 400k was pre 90s?

you just said the sales don’t count towards first week yet he still did over 500k (magna carta) and 262k (444 didnt have a 1st week)

jay z never released a “free” album

Maga Carta was a free digital download for Samsung users after the company bought one million copies. The Sprint investment didn't count towards 4:44 but I think Samsung users that took the offer counted. You don't think when you do deals like this you can fabricate numbers very easily?

 

[Cladyclad]

Appreciate this correction. It underlines that first week sales don't dictate quality or can qualify if music aged well. Just means it had the hype at the time.
I'll use an argument against Future to underline this. What A Time To Be Alive sold 375,000 units in its first week, securing the No. 1 spot on the Billboard 200, according to Wikipedia. However, in the second week, sales plummeted to 65,000 copies, representing an 81% decrease. This drop is sometimes cited as one of the most significant second-week drops for a hip-hop album that debuted at #1.

First week sales are based off hype, industry backing or good marketing. It's more to indicate relevancy at the time if anything or anticipation an artist has from fans. A hip hop legend who is often put in GOAT conversations who only drops every few years will be greatly anticipated and particularly as it concerns Jay Z with his Beyonce stimulus, he'll always have relevancy. That doesn't mean him as an artist aged well.


But didn't you say last time he sold under 400k was pre 90s?





Maga Carta was a free digital download for Samsung users after the company bought one million copies. The Sprint investment didn't count towards 4:44 but I think Samsung users that took the offer counted. You don't think when you do deals like this you can fabricate numbers very easily?

You just Wikipedia everything

I lived it

that drake album is 2 or 3x plat so that drop dont matter

this Beyoncé shyt is funny. Because he help blew her up. Not the other way around

soundscan don’t count free shyt. The album sold 500k first week


you don’t know shyt but make believe lol

 

[TheOptimisticCynikal]

You just Wikipedia everything

I lived it

that drake album is 2 or 3x plat so that drop dont matter

this Beyoncé shyt is funny. Because he help blew her up. Not the other way around

soundscan don’t count free shyt. The album sold 500k first week


you don’t know shyt but make believe lol

That WATTBA fact was something I lived too, I knew for a fact without Googling that that album had the biggest drop off from #1, just wanted to relay the facts accurately and fully, but man, excuse me for looking for references and accurate information. You got it man.



Clearly from my responses I don't know shyt

 

[Cladyclad]

That WATTBA fact was something I lived too, I knew for a fact without Googling that that album had the biggest drop off from #1, just wanted to relay the facts accurately and fully, but man, excuse me for looking for references and accurate information. You got it man.



Clearly from my responses I don't know shyt

You can’t use a album that went 2x platinum as a example

should have use Nas as example debut in the top 5

then out the top 200 in a week or 2

 

[TheOptimisticCynikal]

You can’t use a album that went 2x platinum as a example

should have use Nas as example debut in the top 5

then out the top 200 in a week or 2

I honestly feel it's an innocent opinion man lol. Jay Z is a great. Pivotal in black artists let alone rap artists expanding beyond music and being taken seriously in business. But as a great, music wise and human decency wise far as treating fellow black people in the space, he leaves a lot to be desired.

But again, subjective opinion. I gotta give it to y'all HOV fans. No JAY Z blasphemy will be tolerated

 

[Mike the Executioner]

Untitled was weak, lol.

I’ve had the same theory about Nas and where I think he got off course. Back when I was an rookie A&R, I used to always complain about how the losers and weirdos changed Nas’s direction. They hated Jay because he was hurting their feelings and making them feel like crumbs. You see how the bums on here talk about him. Like he hurt their feelings personally, with songs. So they all hopped on Nas after “Ether” because there was finally someone going at the guy they didn’t like, that made them uncomfortable and sad about their lives.

Problem was, now Nas felt like he had to be the “anti-Jay-Z”. So now he’s not talking about the same sh*t he did in his prime and peak era. He’s leaning into this thing where he’s being the opposite of Jay’s sh*t. But when Nas was talking about getting money, b*tches and fancy sh*t, he was at his best! But he wanted to come through for these new fans, so he pivoted and started with the kufi sh*t and I think that f*cked up his direction. He started catering to the Hov naysayers and that sh*t made his music wild inconsistent.

Nas never stopped talking about any of that shyt. You could argue the older he got, the more he talked about it. "Play on Playa" on HHID is literally him just bragging about what he drinks, how much money he has in his pockets, and the women he entertains.

There's a whole portion of Nas' discography you've ignored for your own reasons, but your theory doesn't hold up. What happened was that Nas went through a period where he was disillusioned with the industry and started leaning more into concepts. That's how you end up getting songs where he's a cockroach or he puts on a James Cagney impression or he disguises his voice to sound like a woman. He said himself there are songs he keeps in the vault because he doesn't think people will understand them. Even then, he never went all the way left. Untitled has "Make the World Go Round," and that song is nothing but him talking about being fly.

I don't know where it became a thing that Nas stopped talking about the typical rapper lifestyle. That's part of his appeal that I believe kept him from attracting a certain kind of crowd. He could get conscious at times, but he was always making songs about the cars he drives and the clothes he wears.

Past nasty now, gross and repulsive
Talk money, is you joking? Cash everywhere in the bank, in my sofa
In the walls, in the cars, in the wallet, in the closet, on the floors
Ceilings, the safe, bytch, I got it
You envy, but don't offend me, I'm skinny, but still, I'm too big for a Bentley
You are your car, what could represent me?
Too godly to be a Bugatti, you honestly
Must design me something Tommy Montana from Queens had before the 90s

 

[Mike the Executioner]

first off Unititled is a legit great album

DR and the whole hit boy nas series was great so I dont get that

nasir is zzzz that ill give u

I like Wells as a poster, but this thread is literally him coming out of the closet as a Hovenger. I absolutely think he holds Nas to a higher standard than Jay, which is why he's been let down by his music for almost thirty years.

Listen to every album a guy puts out because you're a fan of his work, but you've only liked two of his albums in the last twenty years. And the only reason he liked Magic is because it reminded him of his favorite version of Nas and he believes Hit-Boy had help producing it (he was taking shots at Hit-Boy throughout their run).

 

[kes929]

Untitled was weak, lol.

I’ve had the same theory about Nas and where I think he got off course. Back when I was an rookie A&R, I used to always complain about how the losers and weirdos changed Nas’s direction. They hated Jay because he was hurting their feelings and making them feel like crumbs. You see how the bums on here talk about him. Like he hurt their feelings personally, with songs. So they all hopped on Nas after “Ether” because there was finally someone going at the guy they didn’t like, that made them uncomfortable and sad about their lives.

Problem was, now Nas felt like he had to be the “anti-Jay-Z”. So now he’s not talking about the same sh*t he did in his prime and peak era. He’s leaning into this thing where he’s being the opposite of Jay’s sh*t. But when Nas was talking about getting money, b*tches and fancy sh*t, he was at his best! But he wanted to come through for these new fans, so he pivoted and started with the kufi sh*t and I think that f*cked up his direction. He started catering to the Hov naysayers and that sh*t made his music wild inconsistent.

I think Nas is a super artist. I think his dad’s artistic background had an impact on Nas musically. He never wanted to stay the same. He took some risk musically that other artist would never try. Some worked and some didn’t. But the great thing about that is nothing in his catalogue sounds the same. Some people love untitled/distant relatives run including myself. Some people may not vibe with it as much. I think Nas being able to do everything is why Nas is still sounding great today.

 

[Young Scrap]

Anybody using sales as a main talking point to determine the GOAT is laughable

Jay-Z is a GOAT contender but not the undisputed GOAT of hip-hop

His catalog and skills make him a contender, Rakim, Krs One, Scarface etc didn't sell alot of records but are GOAT contenders because it's about your catalog, mic skills, influence etc.