Parallels in the Decline of Rome and the US empire (article)

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:francis: Interesting perspective for the History buffs out here

Decline of Empire: Parallels Between the U.S. and Rome, Part I
Rome reached its peak of military power around the year 107, when Trajan completed the conquest of Dacia (the territory of modern Romania). With Dacia, the empire peaked in size, but I’d argue it was already past its peak by almost every other measure.

The U.S. reached its peak relative to the world, and in some ways its absolute peak, as early as the 1950s. In 1950 this country produced 50% of the world’s GNP and 80% of its vehicles. Now it’s about 21% of world GNP and 5% of its vehicles. It owned two-thirds of the world’s gold reserves; now it holds one-fourth. It was, by a huge margin, the world’s biggest creditor, whereas now it’s the biggest debtor by a huge margin. The income of the average American was by far the highest in the world; today it ranks about eighth, and it’s slipping.
A considerable cottage industry has developed comparing ancient and modern times since Edward Gibbon published The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in 1776—the same year as Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and the U.S. Declaration of Independence were written. I’m a big fan of all three, but D&F is not only a great history, it’s very elegant and readable literature. And it’s actually a laugh riot; Gibbon had a subtle wit.

There have been huge advances in our understanding of Rome since Gibbon’s time, driven by archeological discoveries. There were many things he just didn’t know, because he was as much a philologist as an historian, and he based his writing on what the ancients said about themselves.

There was no real science of archeology when Gibbon wrote; little had been done even to correlate the surviving ancient texts with what was on the surviving monuments—even the well-known monuments—and on the coins. Not to mention scientists digging around in the provinces for what was left of Roman villas, battle sites, and that sort of thing. So Gibbon, like most historians, was to a degree a collector of hearsay.

And how could he know whom to believe among the ancient sources? It’s as though William F. Buckley, Gore Vidal, H. L. Mencken, Norman Mailer, and George Carlin all wrote about the same event, and you were left to figure out whose story was true. That would make it tough to tell what really happened just a few years ago… forget about ancient history.

So why did Rome fall? In 1985, a German named Demandt assembled 210 reasons. I find some of them silly—like racial degeneration, homosexuality, and excessive freedom. Most are redundant. Some are just common sense—like bankruptcy, loss of moral fiber, and corruption.

Gibbon’s list is much shorter. Although it’s pretty hard to summarize his six fat volumes in a single sentence, he attributed the fall of Rome to just two causes, one internal and one external: Christianity and barbarian invasions, respectively. I think Gibbon was essentially right about both. Because of the sensibilities of his era, however, he probed at early Christianity (i.e., from its founding to the mid-4th century) very gently; I’ve decided to deal with it less delicately. Hopefully neither my analysis of religion nor of barbarian invasions (then and now) will disturb too many readers.

In any event, while accepting Gibbon’s basic ideas on Christians and barbarians, I decided to break down the reasons for Rome’s decline further, into 10 categories: political, legal, social, demographic, ecological, military, psychological, intellectual, religious, and economic—all of which I’ll touch on. And, as a bonus, toward the end of this article, I’ll give you another, completely unrelated, and extremely important reason for the collapse of both Rome and the U.S.


Political
It’s somewhat misleading, however, to talk about a simple fall of Rome, and much more accurate to talk about its gradual transformation, with episodes of what paleontologists describe as “punctuated disequilibrium.” There were many falls.

Republican Rome fell in 31 BCE with the accession of Augustus and the start of what’s called the Principate. It almost disintegrated in the 50 years of the mid-3rd century, a time of constant civil war, the start of serious barbarian incursions, and the destruction of Rome’s silver currency, the denarius.

Rome as anything resembling a free society fell in the 290s and then changed radically again, with Diocletian and the Dominate period (more on this shortly). Maybe the end came in 378, when the Goths destroyed a Roman army at Adrianople and wholesale invasions began. Maybe we should call 410 the end, when Alaric—a Goth who was actually a Roman general—conducted the first sacking of Rome.

It might be said the civilization didn’t really collapse until the late 600s, when Islam conquered the Middle East and North Africa and cut off Mediterranean commerce. Maybe we should use 1453, when Constantinople and the Eastern Empire fell. Maybe the Empire is still alive today in the form of the Catholic Church—the Pope is the Pontifex Maximus wearing red slippers, as did Julius Caesar when he held that position.

One certain reflection in the distant mirror is that beginning with the Principate period, Rome underwent an accelerating trend toward absolutism, centralization, totalitarianism, and bureaucracy. I think we can argue America entered its Principate with the accession of Roosevelt in 1933; since then, the president has reigned supreme over the Congress, as Augustus did over the Senate. Pretenses fell off increasingly over time in Rome, just as they have in the U.S.

After the third century, with constant civil war and the destruction of the currency, the Principate (when the emperor, at least in theory, was just the first among equals) gave way to the Dominate period (from the word “dominus,” or lord, referring to a master of slaves), when the emperor became an absolute monarch. This happened with the ascension of Diocletian in 284 and then, after another civil war, Constantine in 306. From that point forward, the emperor no longer even pretended to be the first among equals and was treated as an oriental potentate. The same trend is in motion in the U.S, but we’re still a ways from reaching its endpoint—although it has to be noted that the president is now protected by hundreds, even thousands, of bodyguards. Harry Truman was the last president who actually dared to go out and informally stroll about DC, like a common citizen, while in office.

In any event, just as the Senate, the consuls, and the tribunes with their vetoes became impotent anachronisms, so have U.S. institutions. Early on, starting with the fourth emperor, Claudius, in 41 AD, the Praetorians (who had been set up by Augustus) showed they could designate the emperor. And today in the U.S., that’s probably true of its praetorians—the NSA, CIA, and FBI, among others—and of course the military. We’ll see how the next hanging-chad presidential election dispute gets settled.

My guess is that the booboisie (the Romans called them the capite censi, or head count) will demand a strong leader as the Greater Depression evolves, the dollar is destroyed, and a serious war gets underway. You have to remember that war has always been the health of the state. The Roman emperors were expected, not least by their soldiers, to always be engaged in war. And it’s no accident that the so-called greatest U.S. presidents were war presidents—Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR. We can humorously add the self-proclaimed war president Baby Bush. Military heroes—like Washington, Andrew Jackson, Ulysses Grant, Teddy Roosevelt, and Eisenhower—are always easy to elect. My guess is that a general will run for office in the next election, when we’ll be in a genuine crisis. The public will want a general partly because the military is now by far the most trusted institution of U.S. society. His likely election will be a mistake for numerous reasons, not least that the military is really just a heavily armed variant of the postal service.

That is part 1...ill try and post them as they come up but so far i agree..we are unofficially in the era of the imperial presidency
 

Dr. Acula

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The idea that Rome was a free society before the rise of the empire is not completely true. Even though it was considered a republic, there was a lot of social and class stratification and the average Roman life was harsh and brutish unless you were part of the equestrian or senatorial class. Not to mention that slavery was increasingly becoming more common to the point that by the first century BC, slaves made up 25% of the roman population.

While there are definitely a lot of parallels that can be drawn between ancient Rome and modern america (the "Founding founders" were educated in the classics and looked to ancient rome for inspiration) this reads as a typical politicization of history to fit right wing narratives.

The dominate was not the cause of the downfall Rome and in fact the dominate somewhat kept things together for a while longer, though much longer in the east. Before that was the age of crisis where it was falling apart at the seams. Like the article said, there were many reasons for its downfall but the biggest one is probably the inability of the Roman state to maintain their borders and overextending their empire. A lot of the changes made to rectify the collapse of the empire was pulling back the borders and figuring out how to station soliders on the huge borders to ward off invasion attempts. It became too big and unwieldy.

Also the comparison of roman institutions delegitimization during the principate period under Augustus and later under Diocletian during the dominate being anything similar to what we have today is a bit of stretch. The executive branch isn't an absolute authority like the principates and definitely not like the dominus. We still have noticeable distinctions in power between the congress, courts, and executive.
 

Consigliere

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Good read so far. Will watch this thread.

From what I learned in school, 3 reasons for the collapse:

1- over expansion - the Romans were road builders. They conquered huge swaths of territory but couldn't maintain or protect their trade routes once they had it.

2- greater separation between the ruling class and soldiering class. The sons of the political/wealthy ruling class stopped fighting actively leading military campaigns and hid behind their wealth and religion.

3- taxes - the inability to pay for #1 led to an increased need for $ to pay both soldiers and infrastructure builders while #2 made it impossible to command the loyalty of the soldiers who were increasingly made up of non-Romans.
 

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The idea that Rome was a free society before the rise of the empire is not completely true. Even though it was considered a republic, there was a lot of social and class stratification and the average Roman life was harsh and brutish unless you were part of the equestrian or senatorial class. Not to mention that slavery was increasingly becoming more common to the point that by the first century BC, slaves made up 25% of the roman population.
Not free by our standards ..BUT if you consider the monarchies and Oligarchies that surrounded them back then they were quite progressive..they allowed manumission of slaves and some social mobility within the classes..they had public laws and courts and legal rights for all citizens and free residents.
While there are definitely a lot of parallels that can be drawn between ancient Rome and modern america (the "Founding founders" were educated in the classics and looked to ancient rome for inspiration) this reads as a typical politicization of history to fit right wing narratives.
He is not entirely wrong..the use of words like senate..latin mottos and inscriptions "e pluribus unum" et cetera

The dominate was not the cause of the downfall Rome and in fact the dominate somewhat kept things together for a while longer, though much longer in the east. Before that was the age of crisis where it was falling apart at the seams. Like the article said, there were many reasons for its downfall but the biggest one is probably the inability of the Roman state to maintain their borders and overextending their empire. A lot of the changes made to rectify the collapse of the empire was pulling back the borders and figuring out how to station soliders on the huge borders to ward off invasion attempts. It became too big and unwieldy.
Alot of people say that but i have a difficult time accepting that for Rome..thats more like the British empire..it got too large so it collapsed and shrank but didnt totally implode like Rome..Not that its invalid but perhaps more important were the economic reasons..the original wealth of the state came from land at first and that was great while the empire was expanding and acquiring new land..When the expansion slowed the tax burden became too great the tax collecting bureaucrats and provincial nobility stopped paying and built fiefdoms and became warlords..along with the debasing of currency and the loss of new prisoners for labor...plus increased spending (the dole and circuses ) to pacify the masses in the cityand to keep the soldiers content.
.it was a perfect storm for bankruptcy

Also the comparison of roman institutions delegitimization during the principate period under Augustus and later under Diocletian during the dominate being anything similar to what we have today is a bit of stretch. The executive branch isn't an absolute authority like the principates and definitely not like the dominus. We still have noticeable distinctions in power between the congress, courts, and executive.[
We arent there YET..but lets not pretend the infrastructure isnt already in place for that..I would argue all thats missing is a leader willing to do it and enough of the public being OK with it..things are headed that way as it is right now.what we find normal and acceptable today would never have been tolerated by the generation of 1916..here is a short list
No knock warrants,Being groped at the airport,Going to prison because you owe money for child support, the government refusing to give you permission to leave the country,reading your mail,listening to private conversations....NONE of that would have been tolerated then ....the way its looking unless some miracle happens by 2116 orwells dystopia will be a reality
 

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Good read so far. Will watch this thread.

From what I learned in school, 3 reasons for the collapse:

1- over expansion - the Romans were road builders. They conquered huge swaths of territory but couldn't maintain or protect their trade routes once they had it.
Thats a fair point..they needed those routes to move soldiers quickly and extract wealth from their colonies..

2- greater separation between the ruling class and soldiering class. The sons of the political/wealthy ruling class stopped fighting actively leading military campaigns and hid behind their wealth and religion.
Their Army became less and less native born and less loyal to the republic and more loyal to their leaders..the perfect recipe for coups

3- taxes - the inability to pay for #1 led to an increased need for $ to pay both soldiers and infrastructure builders while #2 made it impossible to command the loyalty of the soldiers who were increasingly made up of non-Romans.[
True Diocletian instituted property and poll tax which were really high then made the urban nobility responsible for collecting taxes. If their collections fell short of the government assessment, they were required to pay the difference out of their own pocket, or face sale of their property and possible personal enslavement. Then he made their position hereditary and lifelong so they wouldn't quit
When they were put in that no win situation many just abandoned their posts built fortified towns and eventually became feudal warlords.
 

superunknown23

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How many books and articles have been predicting the imminent fall of the US in the last 25 years? Thousands?
The 2008 crash was supposed to do it, right?
BRICS was supposed to have next... How they doing?:jbhmm:
 

shonuff

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Good read so far. Will watch this thread.

From what I learned in school, 3 reasons for the collapse:

1- over expansion - the Romans were road builders. They conquered huge swaths of territory but couldn't maintain or protect their trade routes once they had it.

2- greater separation between the ruling class and soldiering class. The sons of the political/wealthy ruling class stopped fighting actively leading military campaigns and hid behind their wealth and religion.

3- taxes - the inability to pay for #1 led to an increased need for $ to pay both soldiers and infrastructure builders while #2 made it impossible to command the loyalty of the soldiers who were increasingly made up of non-Romans.
People seemingly ignore one of the chief reasons for the fall....

Attacks from.a just as organized and equally powerful nation/states ( although they didn't think of themselves as such ) the Goths Visigoths Vikings and Gallic Tribes that fought raided and bleed the Roman state dry for years

Also the decline of Rome wasn't over a few years or even a few decades - it occurred over centuries ....

People have been making this comparison about the nation crumbling like Rome in the last few decades mostly in response to resistance to the cultural and societal changes they don't like in regards to women or minorities or immigrants/immigration or social hegemony being usurped...
 

Consigliere

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Also the decline of Rome wasn't over a few years or even a few decades - it occurred over centuries ....

You could argue history moves faster in the modern age, but I think you’re right that America won’t implode instantly. They remixed Rome a bunch of times before abandoning the project. I don’t see why we would be any different.
 

barese

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The article in OP does have rather ideological wording:
My guess is that in the near future, there will be a lot of young Hispanic males who actively resent paying half of what they make in income, Social Security, and Obamacare taxes in order to subsidize old white women in the Northeast.
I’m a technophile, but there are some reasons to believe we may have serious problems ahead. Global warming, incidentally, isn’t one of them. One of the reasons for the rise of Rome—and the contemporaneous Han in China—may be that the climate cyclically warmed considerably up to the 3rd century, then got much cooler.
Inflation, taxation, and regulation made production increasingly difficult as the empire grew, just as in the US.
The state made production harder and more expensive, it limited economic mobility, and the state-engineered inflation made saving pointless.
Very much as classical religion was replaced by Christianity, traditional Christianity is being replaced by new, secular religions. Marxism has always been a secular religion; its explicit doctrine is fading, but its ethos of statism and collectivism permeates thinking everywhere.
Meanwhile, Greenism and Environmentalism are the really hot tickets as secular religions. They’ve insinuated and integrated themselves into every area of thought and action; saying or thinking anything that doesn’t put Earth first is tantamount to heresy or blasphemy.
 
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