Real talk, the American Revolution was unnecessary

Sukairain

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Somebody wrote this but deleted the post:

Serious observation.

You say a "better state" than Australia or Canada.

Do they have a Bill of Rights?
  • Canadian brehs can't you go to jail for your speech up there
  • Australian brehs (probably not many) didn't the government get rid of all guns back in the 80s - 90s
  • Etc
Are you kidding me? :mjlol: that is the single greatest achievement of the Australian government since 1990. The guns were banned in 1996. Since then we've had 0 mass shootings. 0! It's been 25 years, not a single one. It's so hard to get guns that our crazy white supremacist cacs have to actually go overseas to carry out their plans, like the guy who shot up the mosque in New Zealand. That's a win - when even your most dangerous and radicalised terrorists find it so hard to get guns over here that they have to go to foreign countries to do their terrorism.

All your gun ownership in the US has accomplished is that your cacs feel empowered enough to storm your goddamn senate house. They feel so empowered they go do a mass shooting seemingly every other week. In this country we have found a way to cut the balls off our white terrorists, and somehow this guy think that's a bad thing? You take their guns and you neuter them, like a rottweiler that's been castrated. Turns a vicious beast into a harmless pet.
 
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Because of population. Canada is physically larger than the United States. Australia is the same size as the continental United States. But where the United States population is 330 million, Canada's population is 37 million and Australia's is 25 million.

Australia and Canada cannot support large populations because it is too hot and dry over here, and too cold over there, for them to be suitable for large scale human habitation.

Now here's the thing about post-industrial power, population plays a huge role. You need lots of people to build up an economy. You need lots of people to procure raw materials, you need lots of people to manufacture from raw materials. And that's how you get the navy and the air force and the army kitted out. Endless production resources.

The United States did not become a great power by accident or by luck, but because it happens to be a very suitable land to support a huge population, and that land is basically immune from being invaded ever because its protected by two giant oceans along the eastern and western borders, while to the north and south are countries that cannot even come close to matching American population and therefore American production and American militarization. Canada and Australia are also fantastically protected naturally by oceans, but they never grew like the United States because it's physically impossible for them to do so. Australia is already over-populated with just 25 million!

So the reason Australia and Canada turned out the way they did has nothing to do with the question of independence from Britain. So too does the question of what would have happened to the US if 1776 hadn't been a thing.

Suppose the 13 Colonies stayed loyal to Britain until they were eventually granted a peaceful independence at the start of the 20th century. I still think by the end of that century that the US would have surpassed the UK. The UK relied on its colonies in Africa and south Asia to supply the raw materials and the mass labour force required to industrialize and militarize. But they're so far away from home, plus the people there don't like you, and on top of that you're destroying them by, for instance in India, forcing them to grow cotton and opium instead of rice and wheat, without which there was repeated famine and huge incidents of mass death. So the problems for the UK are that the supply chain is vulnerable because it's so long, that the labour force doesn't like you, and that your continued exploitation of that labour force is actually killing them.

Contrast this with the US. The supply chain is small and compact - it's all within your own borders. It's safe. Secure. Bulletproof and foolproof. If you need a shipment of iron ore from a mine in New York to a factory in California, it's no problem at all to make that delivery. On top of that, because its their homeland and their people responsible for every step of the way - acquiring raw materials, manufacturing them, and then building military infrastructure - your government is forced to take into account the need to keep those lands in decent condition, to keep the people alive, and to keep them content with the way they are treated. So they can't turn the place into a wasteland like the British did, they're forced to take a more sustainable approach to industrialisation.

Once the African and south Asian colonies were lost to them, the British were fukked because they didn't have access to raw materials or to vast manpower reserves anymore.

But for the US, because everything is domestically sourced, becoming a great power was an inevitable outcome. Independence from Britain perhaps accelerated the process, so that by 1919 the US was the leading power in the world. It might have taken until 1969 in our alternative timeline where 1776 never happened, but it was still destined to happen.









I get what you're saying and I can't deny your logic except to say one thing...

If it was all just dependent on population and resources, then Africa would be united and be the greatest country/continent on earth.

So sad to say, there's more that goes into it besides population and resources.
 

Samori Toure

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Britain didn’t support the slave trade. Quiet as its kept, one of the principal reasons the colonists rebelled is because they wanted to maintain the system of slavery.

:unimpressed:

Actually Britain did support the slave trade, which is why slavery was in the USA, Jamaica and other colonies were the British stole land. They literally became wealthy off off of the triangle trade and London was a major slaving port for people and products produced by the slaves. So England literally created the triangular trade to the USA and only Portugal imported more slaves into the West than England.

Britain only turned against the slave trade because the American Colonist and the French were becoming too strong from the trade and creating their own separate trade agreements apart from England. Note how the French assisted the USA in the Revolution. So of course the English did not want the French to become any stronger, but all that shyt is cloaked in abolitionist propaganda now days.

How France Helped Win the American Revolution.
 
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LordLyons

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All wars are unnecessary but they are fought for power and resources. Nothing more nothing less. People fight for power. nikkas need to be trying to get power and resources too :yeshrug:
 

Sukairain

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I get what you're saying and I can't deny your logic except to say one thing...

If it was all just dependent on population and resources, then Africa would be united and be the greatest country/continent on earth.

So sad to say, there's more that goes into it besides population and resources.

But Africa is a continent not a country. The only African country with both abundant natural resources and a high population is I think Nigeria, but it wouldn't have as much of either as the US or China or Russia have. Maybe as many people as Russia. African countries are generally too small, individually, to have what is needed to assume great power status. There can only ever be a handful of great powers at any one time, right now it's the US followed by China and Russia. Then there's a tier of lesser powers like France, the UK, India, Pakistan, and North Korea all of which only hold that status because they have nuclear programmes with enough warheads to deter someone from wanting to invade them. Aside from this select group of countries, the rest of the world is fairly irrelevant in military terms. And the only way into the big 3 positions is if they fall off, or if you take them down personally.

100 years ago there were more great powers: the UK, the US, the USSR, France, Germany, and Japan. Japan climbed up into the top 5 because the Ottoman empire and the Austro-Hungarian empire which had previously been great powers fell off, plus they beat the Russians in a war back in 1905. So there was an opening at the top plus they proved themselves by defeating one of the great powers.

So yes, there's more to it than production and population, but that's the baseline. You can't go anywhere without it. The thing to note is like you say that just because you have a baseline doesn't mean you're automatically going to follow through.

China for example hasn't actually proven itself by defeating another great power, it just climbed up to the top because France and Japan and the UK fell off, because it has such a powerful economy, and it has a robust nuclear programme.

So staying with our alternative timeline where 1776 wasn't a thing, the US would sort of be like China today, climbing up to the top thanks to others falling off, rather than proving it by defeating them and taking their place.
 
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But Africa is a continent not a country. The only African country with both abundant natural resources and a high population is I think Nigeria, but it wouldn't have as much of either as the US or China or Russia have. Maybe as many people as Russia. African countries are generally too small, individually, to have what is needed to assume great power status. There can only ever be a handful of great powers at any one time, right now it's the US followed by China and Russia. Then there's a tier of lesser powers like France, the UK, India, Pakistan, and North Korea all of which only hold that status because they have nuclear programmes with enough warheads to deter someone from wanting to invade them. Aside from this select group of countries, the rest of the world is fairly irrelevant in military terms. And the only way into the big 3 positions is if they fall off, or if you take them down personally.

100 years ago there were more great powers: the UK, the US, the USSR, France, Germany, and Japan. Japan climbed up into the top 5 because the Ottoman empire and the Austro-Hungarian empire which had previously been great powers fell off, plus they beat the Russians in a war back in 1905. So there was an opening at the top plus they proved themselves by defeating one of the great powers.

So yes, there's more to it than production and population, but that's the baseline. You can't go anywhere without it. The thing to note is like you say that just because you have a baseline doesn't mean you're automatically going to follow through.

China for example hasn't actually proven itself by defeating another great power, it just climbed up to the top because France and Japan and the UK fell off, because it has such a powerful economy, and it has a robust nuclear programme.

So staying with our alternative timeline where 1776 wasn't a thing, the US would sort of be like China today, climbing up to the top thanks to others falling off, rather than proving it by defeating them and taking their place.





I get what you're saying but my point is...

What kept America from being a collection of countries on the continent like Africa has a collection of countries on that continent?

If it was all about land mass and resources, then Africa should have recognized the collective power they would have if they became something similar to the United States (such as a United States of Africa).

There's a lot more to it and I don't agree that there can only be a certain number of world powers. It depends on so much more than what you're willing to consider here.

It is leadership, agendas, internally within a nation and the upward mobility of your people and the opportunity that your country has to succeed from competitive fields (science, innovation, production, exporting of goods, etc etc)

There's a lot of things that go into the strength of a nation.
 

Sukairain

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I get what you're saying but my point is...

What kept America from being a collection of countries on the continent like Africa has a collection of countries on that continent?

If it was all about land mass and resources, then Africa should have recognized the collective power they would have if they became something similar to the United States (such as a United States of Africa).

There's a lot more to it and I don't agree that there can only be a certain number of world powers. It depends on so much more than what you're willing to consider here.

It is leadership, agendas, internally within a nation and the upward mobility of your people and the opportunity that your country has to succeed from competitive fields (science, innovation, production, exporting of goods, etc etc)

There's a lot of things that go into the strength of a nation.

It's a good question, federation.

Many former British empire territories are organised as federations: the US, Canada, Australia, India, Nigeria, and Pakistan to name a few. They are as you say a collection of states that united to form one federal country.
1920px-Map_of_unitary_and_federal_states.svg.png

In this map, in green, we have all the federated countries in the world. One thing that strikes me immediately is that the majority of these countries are very large. Russia, Canada, the US, Brazil, Australia, India, Argentina. Out of the top 8 largest countries in the world, 7 - all those listed except China - are federations.

So federation seems to be an efficient way to govern a large landmass. But we should also look at the colonial history of these federations:

Russia was an empire in and of itself, and whatever it conquered was just directly absorbed into the Russian state. The native people were Russianised and everybody became Russian-speakers with some acceptance of Russian culture.

Canada was colonised by the French and the British, until the British took the French part of Canada in 1763. Since 1763 to its independence Canada only knew one ruler, Britain.

The US was colonised by the French, British, and the Spanish. The British held the Atlantic coast and so had the best part of the US; the lands that France and Spain held were much harder to access. After independence the French sold their holdings to the English-speaking successors of the 13 Colonies, and they conquered the Spanish parts later on too.

Brazil was colonised solely by the Portuguese and has always been a Portuguese state of Portuguese-speakers.

India and Pakistan were colonised by a number of powers - the Portuguese, the Danes, and the French - but they only ever held tiny little pieces, no more than a city or two each; Britain had all the rest. English still carries official language status in both countries, and its spoken by about 250 million people in those two countries, about one in six people speak English as a second language.

Australia was colonised solely by the British and has always been a British state of English-speakers.

Argentina was colonised solely by the Spanish and has always been a Spanish state of Spanish-speakers.

So all of these federations have a great deal of history in common, their colonial history of being dominated basically by just one power, and that power left a lasting mark on them, influencing their language, culture, social structures, legal system, constitution, etc. It made sense for, say, California and New York to join the United States together, or for Punjab and Tamil Nadu to join India together, or for New South Wales and Western Australia to join Australia together. Because its all one big connected landmass and they had so much recent history in common and so many institutions and laws and systems left behind by the colonial power also in common.

African countries on the other hand didn't go through the same experiences. There were so many different powers with sizable holdings in Africa:

ColonialAfrica.png

It's a patchwork of disconnected and small states rather than one big unified bloc like elsewhere. The only places both big enough and governed by a single colonial power were French West Africa and British South Africa. But we also have to account for how diverse Africa is as well. Everywhere else in the 7 federal countries I named, India and Pakistan aside, is practically a monoculture. So there was no ethnic barriers to federation either. Of course there are significant ethnic minorities in Brazil and the US for example, but they basically didn't have any political rights when these decisions were made; it was all the white people who made those decisions, and all those white people were basically from the same background.

So the real comparison I think is why India and Pakistan federated when they became independent but so few African countries federated. In the case of Pakistan, it was having a common religion that drove them to federate; Pakistan was founded at its inception as an Islamic republic. African countries on the other hand tend to have many religious identities. Nigeria is a good example, about half of all Nigerians are Muslims and the other half are Christians.

That leaves India. Which has 30 different ethnic groups, languages, and cultures with at least 1 million members each, and over 1000 different groups overall. With several different religions as well. India would not appear to be a candidate for federation, because it is as diverse as Africa is. But I think the reason it happened is that India has a history of unification, on several previous occasions in its history:

1024px-Maurya_Empire%2C_c.250_BCE_2.png


gupta-empire-320-600-ad.png






map-1050-chola-s.jpg







Tughlaq_dynasty_1321_-_1398_ad.PNG


map21ind.jpg


main-qimg-1cd3aa9d1d5ebeab644b37978d86d8ea.jpg

So the precedent existed for a federation since large parts of the country had been unified on many occasions over the previous 2,000 years of history.
 
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The_Truth

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Like others have said, if the colonies didn't rebel then slavery in the US would've ended much sooner and without bloodshed.
 

JadeB

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@Sukairain
Also off topic but why did Tamil Nadu and other parts of southern India remained independent throughout the centuries of imperial unification?
 

The_Truth

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Now that I'm thinking about it, Black America would have been on a completely different course if the American Revolution never happened. When you think about it, most of the racist bullshyt black Americans had to deal with after slavery was due directly to the fact that we NEEDED a war to end it. The South was so butthurt about losing the Civil War and the North pussied out of Reconstruction, that Black people were the victims of Jim Crow for about another hundred years. Had slavery ended when Britain outlawed it, it's reasonable to assume that black people would have had a much easier time transitioning into American society. Which means, we could have started building generational wealth. After the American Revolution, American cacs had to double down on the white supremacy to justify keeping slavery. What we know as "black culture" may have been entirely different from what we have today.

And another thing...America would have no gun culture. The reason why the US is so gun crazy is because it always cites the Revolution as the reason for owning guns. The fact that the USA was born out of war is where the gun culture originates from. No revolution, no gun culture, no mass shooting every week.
 
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