He's a surfer, a musician and the man who made the Japanese RPGs – and their spiky-haired heroes – some of the most popular games in the world.
For those with ADHD - Read first paragraph only.
It has been twelve years since the father of Final Fantasy, Hironobu Sakaguchi, has had anything to do with the blockbuster role-playing game franchise he created in 1987. Despite over 100 million sales and numerous successful sequels, including series high point Final Fantasy VII in 1996, he was eventually undone by his debut as a movie director. His disastrous all-CG movie Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within was a global flop that lost tens of millions of dollars at the box office and blew a hole in Square's finances so big it had to merge with rival Enix Corporation in 2003.
Sakaguchi resigned in 2004 and formed his own studio, Mistwalker, famously enraging his fans by announcing a deal to publish his first non-Square RPG, Blue Dragon, exclusively to Microsoft’s Xbox – a console that had been received in Japan about as warmly as bird-flu. Since then, he’s moved to Hawaii, launched some DS games, another RPG – this time for Nintendo (The Last Story), a successful mobile game (Terra Battle) and even a surfing game for phones called Party Wave.
It’s been quite a ride. We met with Sakaguchi at his Mistwalker studio in Roppongi Hills, Tokyo this summer to talk skipping school to watch movies, his early dreams of being a musician, reconciling (or not) with Square Enix, and what he thinks of the latest addition to the series he created – Final Fantasy XV.
You were brought on the stage for the Uncovered Final Fantasy XV event this March, which was a surprise. It also seemed like this was sort of a reconciliation between you and Square Enix. Is that how we should read this?
That’s a difficult question. Do you want the honest answer? As a company, it made sense for [Square Enix] to distance themselves from me. Obviously, I had a strong influence on the people who were there and that’s not necessarily a positive thing for a company that needs to carry on and continue growing. I can understand why things played out the way they did. However, 15 years have passed, and the people who are working there now and making Final Fantasy games now are not people I have worked with before, so my influence won’t be as big on them as it might have been in the past.
I wouldn’t say this represents a reconciliation so much as a new era. But I think Square Enix is also afraid that people are going to associate any success of the newFinal Fantasy with the my seeming return, as if I have any influence on the game or am involved with the development. So they simply want me to show my face once in awhile as the initial creator of the series.
So it’s more of an endorsement?
Yes, that’s right.
How did the outreach happen?
I had dinner with Tabata-san three times or so. He wanted to do an interview like this one, to talk about the creation of Final Fantasy because he wasn't there at the beginning. So since he’s taken the Final Fantasy baton, he was wondering who would be best to talk to about the initial games and eventually came to me. We had dinner several times and through talking with him, I told him that I liked where his head was at. He was doing his best to make Final Fantasy XV something impactful. At the end of one of our meals, he asked me if I would go up on stage and tell people that his is a team that is up to the challenge. He thought that would really excite and unify his development team.
So, Final Fantasy will be 30 years old. What would you say if Square Enix wanted to bring the original development team back to make a commemorative, anniversary project with Yoshytaka Amano, Nobuo Uematsu, and you?
Well, we would have to make it in pixel art. It would be fun if it was a promotional video or something, not a full-length game. It’s a lot of work to make a game.
I’m curious what you would had done if you had the technical power we have right now back when you started making games.
I might not even think about making games. It would look too intimidating. It’s not something I could make on my own.
How many people made the first Final Fantasy?
By the end, probably 20 people. But at first there were only four of us.
So, we wouldn’t have a game by you if the technology in 1987 was what it is today?
No, I don’t think so.
How do you feel about the Final Fantasy remakes?
On one hand, there are benefits to creating remakes. For example, the original Final Fantasy games were made of characters with the big, stubby heads. This style doesn’t really sell outside of the Japanese market. So, the remakes introduce these early games in a way that weren’t done before and I appreciate them because they can be enjoyed by a bigger audience. But personally, as a creator, I’d rather people focus their energy into creating something new. For example, [Final Fantasy XVdirector, Hajime Tabata] has recently created Final Fantasy XV and created an entirely new story, world, and characters. I think that’s great. But like I said, the remakes have their purpose.
Were you informed in advance of the Final Fantasy VII remake before they announced it to the public last year?
No.
Were you surprised?
Yes.
It’s something that fans have wanted for a long time. The expectation that it was going to be made was dwindling, so when they announced it at the Sony event it was an exciting moment.
Yeah, but remakes are difficult. Look at Star Wars. George Lucas added new CGI to the original and people still prefer to watch the originals rather than the remake. Not to say it’s a bad thing. I just think it’s difficult.
CyberConnect is responsible for the core development, and that's a very good studio. If you were to give them advice about what is essential to Final Fantasy VII, what would it be?
I think it’s quite challenging... I mean, we’ve seen previews of the new game and obviously all the visuals have changed. Which means all the fight scenes will also change accordingly, so they will probably keep the battles in real-time. I think that they must be making a brand new game that just shares the characters, story and world. So, there’s really nothing I can give in terms of advice. Do as you wish, I guess.
I would love to make a new Tobal game, because of Akira Toriyama
I'm going to paraphrase a quote from [original Final Fantasy composer] Nobuo Uematsu, from an interview I did with him many years ago. I asked him how he felt when you left Squaresoft. His response was "I think that the day Sakaguchi-san left Squaresoft, they should have stopped making Final Fantasy." Do you have a response to that?
When I first left the company, I did feel that Squaresoft was taking the games in a direction that I didn’t want them to, specifically with Final Fantasy XIII. I wasn’t particularly happy with it. But after leaving the company, and with time, I have come to accept that I was the one who left, so they were free to do what they wanted with it. And recently I have been looking at Final Fantasy XV, and although I’ve never known or worked with Tabata-san, by looking at his production I feel that he has adopted the spirit that I had when I first created the series. I feel that, in the hands of talented people, the original feel of the series is being brought back.
Are there any series from the original PlayStation era, when Squaresoft was perhaps at its most prolific, that you think would be interesting to see come back now?
I would love to make a new Tobal game, because of Akira Toriyama.
Speaking of [Dragon Ball creator] Akira Toriyama, Nobuo Uematsu mentioned that despite working on numerous titles along with Toriyama-san, he’s never actually met him in person. Did you actually meet during your collaborations?
Yes, I’ve met him and I’ve actually travelled with him to San Francisco and Los Angeles.
What's it like working with him? Is he as reclusive as they say?
He works alone at his studio in Nagoya. I only need to give him the scenario, my vision for the world and personality of the characters. The rest is up to his imagination. I will give feedback for the first four or five drafts and it usually changes a little from the very first draft. I also work with his producer, Mr. Kazuhiko Torishima, a former editor of Jump magazine. He actually has a lot of say in the design. He provides feedback about whether the design will be impactful with the consumers. The three of us work together to iron it out. Mr. Torishima basically discovered and raised Toriyama from his early days. He’s like Toriyama’s father figure.
Was there any concern in approaching him for Chrono Trigger? Were you worried there would be baggage in having him handle character and world designs?
I’ve always been a huge fan of Toriyama’s work, and I think everyone is. Working with Toriyama was my biggest dream so I just wanted to do it. I didn’t care if it overlapped stylistically with Dragon Quest just as long as I could work with him. I still feel that way.
Blue Dragon had both Toriyama and Uematsu on the development team, which is a carryover from the Chrono Team. What was the most rewarding part of that game’s development?
When I first saw the illustrations Toriyama-san submitted, of course. But I wanted to make the game feel like claymation. Not overly realistic, but the way the light reflected off the characters. When I first saw the characters move in the Blue Dragon environment that he had designed move in 3D, that was pretty moving experience.
There’s a physical quality to the characters.
Yeah, I wanted it to make them as close as possible to Toriyama-san’s illustration style.
When you were growing up, what movies and TV shows did you watch? What had a big, creative impact on you?
I watched all the major pop culture productions. Starting with Tezuka Osamu, Ultraman and Kamen Raider, and works by Ishinomori Shotarou who wrote Black Jack and Kamen Raider. Star Wars was really big when I was in high school, and Flash Gordon as well. Hayao Miyazaki’s works, and Gundam. I really liked anime as a child so I’ve probably watched all of it. When I was in high school, I was a little bit of a punk. In Japan, kids usually wear uniforms to school but my school didn’t have a uniform so I could leave the school campus without getting into trouble because I would be wearing regular clothes. So, I’d leave during school hours and go watch movies at the theater.
Back then, movies would be in the theater for longer. Star Wars and E.T.were in the theaters for a year and a half. It was easier for movies to have a bigger impact on our lives back then.
For me, it was probably Blade Runner [that had the biggest impact]. I didn’t know anything about the film before watching it. I was blown away. Nausicaa was another one. It's an anime so my expectations were super low. There was nothing else showing and we were bored, so my friend and I were like, “yeah, guess we’ll see a stupid anime movie,” but both of us were in tears by the end of the film.
Was fantasy also an influence for you?
Around that time, I was also influenced by Kaoru Kurimoto’s Guin Saga series. The cover, incidentally, was designed by [Final Fantasy conceptual artist] Yoshytaka Amano. When Kurimoto started to write the series, she said she would write a hundred books. It’s very much a fantasy setting. And, I think she did in fact write over 100 books, including the side stories before she passed away in 1979. She was quite the genius. In 2005, they published the 100th book, but by the time they finished publishing all her material, there were 155 books in all. I've only read 30 or 40 of them.
I heard you're a pretty accomplished musician, is that true?
I actually wanted to become a musician when I was in high school. I wanted to be a singer/songwriter. I took piano lessons from childhood and played the guitar and sang songs. I was influenced by Japanese artists, like Southern All-Stars. I was also listening to Stevie Wonder and Queen.
As you grew older, did your interests change?
Well, I wasn’t really going anywhere with the band and was struggling to make it big, so when I was about 19, 20 years old, the Apple II was released. At that point I was hooked and all my focus switched to the Apple II.
Going back to Guin Saga, I’m trying to bridge the connection between why Final Fantasy became a fantasy instead of sci-fi game series, since so many of your influences were science fiction.
Obviously, the story for Final Fantasy was strongly influenced by the Guin Saga and other fantasy books, but the biggest influences on the games came from what I was playing on my Apple II at the time: Wizardry and Ultima.
You have worked on so many games in the past. How would you describe your entire body of work?
This probably goes for the games I make in the future as well as the past, but the process I take when making a game, I first think of the characters and the story and the world, and the various emotions that the player will be experiencing – things like despair, defeat, and hope.
But what I hope people take away from playing my games is that there’s a real positive energy at the end of the game, that they come away from it feeling that it was a good story. One of the other key aspects for me is "density," how well the content is spread throughout the game. I don’t want people to feel they are doing the same thing again and again. It’s about having an experience from start to end that is entirely engaging.
Do you feel there’s an obligation to give people a happy ending in a video game?
Yeah, I don’t doubt that you could make a game with an open-ended, artistic ending, like in French films, but that’s not my style. I like making game that makes you feel hopeful for the future, striving for a better tomorrow
For those with ADHD - Read first paragraph only.
It has been twelve years since the father of Final Fantasy, Hironobu Sakaguchi, has had anything to do with the blockbuster role-playing game franchise he created in 1987. Despite over 100 million sales and numerous successful sequels, including series high point Final Fantasy VII in 1996, he was eventually undone by his debut as a movie director. His disastrous all-CG movie Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within was a global flop that lost tens of millions of dollars at the box office and blew a hole in Square's finances so big it had to merge with rival Enix Corporation in 2003.
Sakaguchi resigned in 2004 and formed his own studio, Mistwalker, famously enraging his fans by announcing a deal to publish his first non-Square RPG, Blue Dragon, exclusively to Microsoft’s Xbox – a console that had been received in Japan about as warmly as bird-flu. Since then, he’s moved to Hawaii, launched some DS games, another RPG – this time for Nintendo (The Last Story), a successful mobile game (Terra Battle) and even a surfing game for phones called Party Wave.
It’s been quite a ride. We met with Sakaguchi at his Mistwalker studio in Roppongi Hills, Tokyo this summer to talk skipping school to watch movies, his early dreams of being a musician, reconciling (or not) with Square Enix, and what he thinks of the latest addition to the series he created – Final Fantasy XV.
You were brought on the stage for the Uncovered Final Fantasy XV event this March, which was a surprise. It also seemed like this was sort of a reconciliation between you and Square Enix. Is that how we should read this?
That’s a difficult question. Do you want the honest answer? As a company, it made sense for [Square Enix] to distance themselves from me. Obviously, I had a strong influence on the people who were there and that’s not necessarily a positive thing for a company that needs to carry on and continue growing. I can understand why things played out the way they did. However, 15 years have passed, and the people who are working there now and making Final Fantasy games now are not people I have worked with before, so my influence won’t be as big on them as it might have been in the past.
I wouldn’t say this represents a reconciliation so much as a new era. But I think Square Enix is also afraid that people are going to associate any success of the newFinal Fantasy with the my seeming return, as if I have any influence on the game or am involved with the development. So they simply want me to show my face once in awhile as the initial creator of the series.
So it’s more of an endorsement?
Yes, that’s right.
How did the outreach happen?
I had dinner with Tabata-san three times or so. He wanted to do an interview like this one, to talk about the creation of Final Fantasy because he wasn't there at the beginning. So since he’s taken the Final Fantasy baton, he was wondering who would be best to talk to about the initial games and eventually came to me. We had dinner several times and through talking with him, I told him that I liked where his head was at. He was doing his best to make Final Fantasy XV something impactful. At the end of one of our meals, he asked me if I would go up on stage and tell people that his is a team that is up to the challenge. He thought that would really excite and unify his development team.
So, Final Fantasy will be 30 years old. What would you say if Square Enix wanted to bring the original development team back to make a commemorative, anniversary project with Yoshytaka Amano, Nobuo Uematsu, and you?
Well, we would have to make it in pixel art. It would be fun if it was a promotional video or something, not a full-length game. It’s a lot of work to make a game.
I’m curious what you would had done if you had the technical power we have right now back when you started making games.
I might not even think about making games. It would look too intimidating. It’s not something I could make on my own.
How many people made the first Final Fantasy?
By the end, probably 20 people. But at first there were only four of us.
So, we wouldn’t have a game by you if the technology in 1987 was what it is today?
No, I don’t think so.
How do you feel about the Final Fantasy remakes?
On one hand, there are benefits to creating remakes. For example, the original Final Fantasy games were made of characters with the big, stubby heads. This style doesn’t really sell outside of the Japanese market. So, the remakes introduce these early games in a way that weren’t done before and I appreciate them because they can be enjoyed by a bigger audience. But personally, as a creator, I’d rather people focus their energy into creating something new. For example, [Final Fantasy XVdirector, Hajime Tabata] has recently created Final Fantasy XV and created an entirely new story, world, and characters. I think that’s great. But like I said, the remakes have their purpose.
Were you informed in advance of the Final Fantasy VII remake before they announced it to the public last year?
No.
Were you surprised?
Yes.
It’s something that fans have wanted for a long time. The expectation that it was going to be made was dwindling, so when they announced it at the Sony event it was an exciting moment.
Yeah, but remakes are difficult. Look at Star Wars. George Lucas added new CGI to the original and people still prefer to watch the originals rather than the remake. Not to say it’s a bad thing. I just think it’s difficult.
CyberConnect is responsible for the core development, and that's a very good studio. If you were to give them advice about what is essential to Final Fantasy VII, what would it be?
I think it’s quite challenging... I mean, we’ve seen previews of the new game and obviously all the visuals have changed. Which means all the fight scenes will also change accordingly, so they will probably keep the battles in real-time. I think that they must be making a brand new game that just shares the characters, story and world. So, there’s really nothing I can give in terms of advice. Do as you wish, I guess.
I would love to make a new Tobal game, because of Akira Toriyama
I'm going to paraphrase a quote from [original Final Fantasy composer] Nobuo Uematsu, from an interview I did with him many years ago. I asked him how he felt when you left Squaresoft. His response was "I think that the day Sakaguchi-san left Squaresoft, they should have stopped making Final Fantasy." Do you have a response to that?
When I first left the company, I did feel that Squaresoft was taking the games in a direction that I didn’t want them to, specifically with Final Fantasy XIII. I wasn’t particularly happy with it. But after leaving the company, and with time, I have come to accept that I was the one who left, so they were free to do what they wanted with it. And recently I have been looking at Final Fantasy XV, and although I’ve never known or worked with Tabata-san, by looking at his production I feel that he has adopted the spirit that I had when I first created the series. I feel that, in the hands of talented people, the original feel of the series is being brought back.
Are there any series from the original PlayStation era, when Squaresoft was perhaps at its most prolific, that you think would be interesting to see come back now?
I would love to make a new Tobal game, because of Akira Toriyama.
Speaking of [Dragon Ball creator] Akira Toriyama, Nobuo Uematsu mentioned that despite working on numerous titles along with Toriyama-san, he’s never actually met him in person. Did you actually meet during your collaborations?
Yes, I’ve met him and I’ve actually travelled with him to San Francisco and Los Angeles.
What's it like working with him? Is he as reclusive as they say?
He works alone at his studio in Nagoya. I only need to give him the scenario, my vision for the world and personality of the characters. The rest is up to his imagination. I will give feedback for the first four or five drafts and it usually changes a little from the very first draft. I also work with his producer, Mr. Kazuhiko Torishima, a former editor of Jump magazine. He actually has a lot of say in the design. He provides feedback about whether the design will be impactful with the consumers. The three of us work together to iron it out. Mr. Torishima basically discovered and raised Toriyama from his early days. He’s like Toriyama’s father figure.
Was there any concern in approaching him for Chrono Trigger? Were you worried there would be baggage in having him handle character and world designs?
I’ve always been a huge fan of Toriyama’s work, and I think everyone is. Working with Toriyama was my biggest dream so I just wanted to do it. I didn’t care if it overlapped stylistically with Dragon Quest just as long as I could work with him. I still feel that way.
Blue Dragon had both Toriyama and Uematsu on the development team, which is a carryover from the Chrono Team. What was the most rewarding part of that game’s development?
When I first saw the illustrations Toriyama-san submitted, of course. But I wanted to make the game feel like claymation. Not overly realistic, but the way the light reflected off the characters. When I first saw the characters move in the Blue Dragon environment that he had designed move in 3D, that was pretty moving experience.
There’s a physical quality to the characters.
Yeah, I wanted it to make them as close as possible to Toriyama-san’s illustration style.
When you were growing up, what movies and TV shows did you watch? What had a big, creative impact on you?
I watched all the major pop culture productions. Starting with Tezuka Osamu, Ultraman and Kamen Raider, and works by Ishinomori Shotarou who wrote Black Jack and Kamen Raider. Star Wars was really big when I was in high school, and Flash Gordon as well. Hayao Miyazaki’s works, and Gundam. I really liked anime as a child so I’ve probably watched all of it. When I was in high school, I was a little bit of a punk. In Japan, kids usually wear uniforms to school but my school didn’t have a uniform so I could leave the school campus without getting into trouble because I would be wearing regular clothes. So, I’d leave during school hours and go watch movies at the theater.
Back then, movies would be in the theater for longer. Star Wars and E.T.were in the theaters for a year and a half. It was easier for movies to have a bigger impact on our lives back then.
For me, it was probably Blade Runner [that had the biggest impact]. I didn’t know anything about the film before watching it. I was blown away. Nausicaa was another one. It's an anime so my expectations were super low. There was nothing else showing and we were bored, so my friend and I were like, “yeah, guess we’ll see a stupid anime movie,” but both of us were in tears by the end of the film.
Was fantasy also an influence for you?
Around that time, I was also influenced by Kaoru Kurimoto’s Guin Saga series. The cover, incidentally, was designed by [Final Fantasy conceptual artist] Yoshytaka Amano. When Kurimoto started to write the series, she said she would write a hundred books. It’s very much a fantasy setting. And, I think she did in fact write over 100 books, including the side stories before she passed away in 1979. She was quite the genius. In 2005, they published the 100th book, but by the time they finished publishing all her material, there were 155 books in all. I've only read 30 or 40 of them.
I heard you're a pretty accomplished musician, is that true?
I actually wanted to become a musician when I was in high school. I wanted to be a singer/songwriter. I took piano lessons from childhood and played the guitar and sang songs. I was influenced by Japanese artists, like Southern All-Stars. I was also listening to Stevie Wonder and Queen.
As you grew older, did your interests change?
Well, I wasn’t really going anywhere with the band and was struggling to make it big, so when I was about 19, 20 years old, the Apple II was released. At that point I was hooked and all my focus switched to the Apple II.
Going back to Guin Saga, I’m trying to bridge the connection between why Final Fantasy became a fantasy instead of sci-fi game series, since so many of your influences were science fiction.
Obviously, the story for Final Fantasy was strongly influenced by the Guin Saga and other fantasy books, but the biggest influences on the games came from what I was playing on my Apple II at the time: Wizardry and Ultima.
You have worked on so many games in the past. How would you describe your entire body of work?
This probably goes for the games I make in the future as well as the past, but the process I take when making a game, I first think of the characters and the story and the world, and the various emotions that the player will be experiencing – things like despair, defeat, and hope.
But what I hope people take away from playing my games is that there’s a real positive energy at the end of the game, that they come away from it feeling that it was a good story. One of the other key aspects for me is "density," how well the content is spread throughout the game. I don’t want people to feel they are doing the same thing again and again. It’s about having an experience from start to end that is entirely engaging.
Do you feel there’s an obligation to give people a happy ending in a video game?
Yeah, I don’t doubt that you could make a game with an open-ended, artistic ending, like in French films, but that’s not my style. I like making game that makes you feel hopeful for the future, striving for a better tomorrow
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