Was Waco really a shytshow as portraid?

Soundbwoy

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I vaguely remember hearing about it as a kid and always assumed it was just some cac white supremacy situation :hubie: But after watching the series on Netflix I'm befuddled :dwillhuh: I know it's not 100% accurate and they portrait David Koresh too much in a positive light but even watching currently Waco: Rules of Engagement it really seems the ATF just attracted these people guns blazing knowing there was children in there :mjtf: and the FBI just went all out on the final attack with the CS gas :dahell: There has to be more to the story :mindblown:
 

Soundbwoy

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You realize there was a 51 day standoff.

You do also realize a news station tipped them off to the initial execution of the Warrent beforehand.

Stop it. :mjlol:
ok but it doesn't justify them opening fire as soon as the door was open
 

MushroomX

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Here is a bit of the lead-up to Waco from the Wikpedia Page on Waco.

Waco siege - Wikipedia

Following the failure of this prophecy, control of the site (Mount Carmel Center) fell to Benjamin Roden, founder of the Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association (Branch Davidians). He promoted different doctrinal beliefs than Victor Houteff's original Davidian Seventh-day Adventist organization. On Roden's death, control fell to his wife, Lois Roden. Lois considered their son, George Roden, unfit to assume the position of prophet. Instead, she groomed Vernon Howell (later known as David Koresh) as her chosen successor.

In 1984, a meeting led to a division of the group, with Howell leading one faction (calling themselves the Branch Davidians) and George Roden leading the competing faction. After this split, George Roden ran Howell and his followers off Mount Carmel at gunpoint. Howell and his group relocated to Palestine, Texas.

After the death of Lois Roden and probate of her estate in January 1987, Howell attempted to gain control of Mount Carmel Center by force. George Roden had dug up the casket of one Anna Hughes from the Davidian cemetery and had challenged Howell to a resurrection contest to prove who was the rightful heir to the leadership. Howell instead went to the police and claimed Roden was guilty of corpse abuse, but the county prosecutors refused to file charges without proof.
Vernon Howell (later David Koresh) in a 1987 mug shot

On November 3, 1987, Howell and seven armed companions tried to get into the Mount Carmel chapel, with the goal of photographing the body in the casket as evidence to incriminate. Roden was informed of the interlopers and opened fire. The Sheriff's Department responded about 20 minutes into the gunfight, during which Roden had been wounded. Sheriff Harwell got Howell on the phone and told him to stop shooting and surrender. Howell and his companions, dubbed the "Rodenville Eight" by the media, were tried for attempted murder on April 12, 1988. Seven were acquitted, and the jury was hung on Howell's verdict. The county prosecutors did not press the case further.

Even with all the effort to bring the casket to court, the standing judge refused to use it as evidence for the case. Judge Herman Fitts ruled that the courtroom is no place for a casket when defense attorney Gary Coker requested it be used as evidence for the case. During questions about said casket, Roden admitted to attempting to resurrect Anne Hughes on three occasions. The Rodenville Eight were forced to carry the casket down the street to a van awaiting the body.

While waiting for the trial, Roden was put in jail under contempt of court charges because of his use of foul language in some court pleadings. He threatened the Texas court with sexually transmitted diseases if the court ruled in Howell's favor. Alongside these charges, Roden was jailed for six months for legal motions he filed with explicit language. Roden faced 90 days in jail for living on the property after being ordered to neither live on the property nor call himself the leader of the religious group in a 1979 case. The next day, Perry Jones and a number of Howell's other followers moved from their headquarters in Palestine, Texas, to Mount Carmel. In mid-1989, Roden used an axe to kill a Davidian named Wayman Dale Adair, who visited him to discuss Adair's vision of being God's chosen messiah. He was found guilty under an insanity defense and was committed to a mental hospital. Shortly after Roden's commitment, Howell raised money to pay off all the back taxes on Mount Carmel owed by Roden and took legal control of the property. After these legal proceedings, it is noted in a 90-minute interview by the Davidians attorney Douglas Martin that the religious group has been back and forth to court since 1955.

On August 5, 1989, Howell released the "New Light" audio tape, in which he said that he had been told by God to procreate with the women in the group to establish a "House of David" of his "special people". This involved separating married couples in the group, who had to agree that only he could have sexual relations with the wives, while the men should observe celibacy. Howell also said that God had told him to start building an "Army for God" to prepare for the end of days and a salvation for his followers.

Howell filed a petition in the California State Superior Court in Pomona on May 15, 1990, to legally change his name "for publicity and business purposes" to David Koresh. On August 28, he was granted the petition. By 1992, most of the land belonging to the group had been sold except for a core 77 acres (31 ha). Most of the buildings had been removed or were being salvaged for construction materials to convert much of the main chapel and a tall water tank into apartments for the resident members of the group. Many of the members of the group had been involved with the Davidians for a few generations, and many had large families.

The ATF/FBI before Waco, had a shytstorm because of the Ruby Ridge standoff.

So from what I gather from this.
  • David Koresh was a rapist, and was gathering illegal weapons.
  • The ATF engagement was a clusterfukk, because no one knows who shot first.
  • The FBI was too impatient, plus their methods for the siege was unethical.
  • David Koresh during the siege itself is up in the air; I personally don't think he looked go guns blazing, but I do think he wanted to commit mass suicide once he got his message out.
Either way, after this, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols ended up Bombing Oklahoma City because of these two events.

But no one was a saint in this event.
 

re'up

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It was a total debacle, the FBI had a series of very bad moment in that era, from Ruby Ridge, to this, and some others I forgot. There was a breakdown in tactical command, and bad , misguided calls by leadership, but there was NO question Koresh needed to be apprehended. You also had too many agencies, which hamstrung the chain of command, and the very intense media spotlight, and no one wanting to back down.
 

Soundbwoy

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Here is a bit of the lead-up to Waco from the Wikpedia Page on Waco.

Waco siege - Wikipedia



The ATF/FBI before Waco, had a shytstorm because of the Ruby Ridge standoff.

So from what I gather from this.
  • David Koresh was a rapist, and was gathering illegal weapons.
  • The ATF engagement was a clusterfukk, because no one knows who shot first.
  • The FBI was too impatient, plus their methods for the siege was unethical.
  • David Koresh during the siege itself is up in the air; I personally don't think he looked go guns blazing, but I do think he wanted to commit mass suicide once he got his message out.
Either way, after this, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols ended up Bombing Oklahoma City because of these two events.

But no one was a saint in this event.
Yeah I've been caught in a rabbit hole of Waco and Ruby Ridge today, they had no proof there was child abuse other than him marrying a 15 years old wich is not excusable :sitdown: even during the congress hearing they couldn't believe the fukkery the ATF and FBI were on :mindblown: any good Timoty McVeigh doc I should watch?:lupe:
 

MushroomX

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Yeah I've been caught in a rabbit hole of Waco and Ruby Ridge today, they had no proof there was child abuse other than him marrying a 15 years old wich is not excusable :sitdown: even during the congress hearing they couldn't believe the fukkery the ATF and FBI were on :mindblown: any good Timoty McVeigh doc I should watch?:lupe:
While there may be no proof, I tend to side on the fence that rape did occur since there has been a long, long history of sexual abuse when religion is involved. Thought when it comes to legal, its hard to prove to a jury. Still its really hard for me to think that some demonic shyt didn't went down, considering Kuresh wanted everyone else to be celibate.
 

Soundbwoy

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While there may be no proof, I tend to side on the fence that rape did occur since there has been a long, long history of sexual abuse when religion is involved. Thought when it comes to legal, its hard to prove to a jury. Still its really hard for me to think that some demonic shyt didn't went down, considering Kuresh wanted everyone else to be celibate.
that was wild:mjlol:
 
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