Why are there no female libertarians?

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…except I didn't make an error in deductive reasoning, since I was clearly using inductive. If you want this discussion to happen within the framework of a sound and complete proof system within predicate logic, I don't know what to tell you.

But that's a boring and semantic argument, and I'd rather be moving on from that, so explain to me as a potential Johnson voter what turns you off about your interests aligning with the Kochs.

They're undoubtedly intelligent enough. Probably more "deserving" of their wealth than someone like Trump. What makes them different from a version of you that would want to be that wealthy (not a terrible desire, all told)?


Youre right i grow weary of debating the hypothetical implications of the Kochs funding and obviously we can only guess as to their true intentions and motivations...unless someone round here has personal knowledge of them.

I do have a few matters to attend to ( in my own personal struggle to become a billionaire robber baron as well:win:) but i will return to explain why i think my interests and theirs dont align
 

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They're undoubtedly intelligent enough. Probably more "deserving" of their wealth than someone like Trump. What makes them different from a version of you that would want to be that wealthy (not a terrible desire, all told)?
Indeed they are more "deserving" if you believe in that sort of egalitarian karmic worldview..I would love to be in their position one day..




The Koch brothers seem to alighn with libertarian causes but when push comes to shove like with the controversy over Nuclear power in the 70s and 80s (they opposed it) despite the data and the numerous examples from Europe,Japan and Russia that it can provide cheap reliable electricity( but i suspect their coal,oil and gas holdings played a bigger part in that than any environmental sentiments.) IMO America would be better off now if they had built those plants.

They refused to support Ron paul and the current libertarian Party candidates and threw their money behind establishment hacks like Romney,Scott walker and other republicans and alot of this probably stems form their ideological split with Murray rothbard and the other Idealistic libertarians in the 70s and 80s,Rothbard chafed at the watering down of the libertarian message to make it palatable to the republican party and the kochs had him kicked out of Cato and other groups and pushed to the sidelines.

They are pro central banking..a position favored by oligarchs but not libertarians..the reason why CATO made a switch from Austrian to Chicago school not to mention their other social /christian conservative positions on Gays and Abortion that are completely contrary to libertarians..

heres what he said when asked about this
Koch also said he now considers himself a Republican first and foremost — rather than a Libertarian or a nonpartisan supporter of free enterprise — despite a background in Libertarian politics and some views that are out of step with the GOP orthodoxy.

“The Libertarian Party is a great concept. I love the ideals, but it got too far off the deep end, and so I dropped out,” Koch said. “I think the Republican Party has a great chance of being successful and that’s why I support it,” he said, adding “but I believe in the libertarian principles.”

: David Koch breaks from GOP on gay marriage, taxes, defense cuts - Kenneth P. Vogel
 

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Those things you mentioned seem like pragmatism to me, and less a disillusionment with the ideology than it is a disillusionment with the apparatus.

So that being said, I'd ask one of two questions, depending on if you agree or disagree with that assessment:

If you think that they've evolved into regular establishment Republicans, is the avowed belief in libertarian principles just lip service?

If you think they're ideologically libertarians whose hand has been forced into pragmatic support of establishment Republicans, why do you and other libertarians distance yourselves from the Koch Brothers? The positions on nuclear power and the changes in Cato back in the day probably contributed more to Gary Johnson's name in peoples' mouths today than Rothbard's purity has.

And that's basically the point I'm working toward: you can clearly see the value in tacking to the majority when you're a national candidate, it's the nature of the beast. You may not agree with the mindset, but I doubt you'd argue it's done accidentally. So my question is, why does the Libertarian Party, when it casts a wider net, have much better luck pulling in from Conservatives than it does Liberals?
 

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Those things you mentioned seem like pragmatism to me, and less a disillusionment with the ideology than it is a disillusionment with the apparatus.
Indeed but pragmatism is a double edged sword...one can be too pragmatic to the point of complete capitulation and before you know it youve been assimilated..

So that being said, I'd ask one of two questions, depending on if you agree or disagree with that assessment:

If you think that they've evolved into regular establishment Republicans, is the avowed belief in libertarian principles just lip service?
I take them at their own word that they are now Republicans with libertarian leanings

If you think they're ideologically libertarians whose hand has been forced into pragmatic support of establishment Republicans, why do you and other libertarians distance yourselves from the Koch Brothers? The positions on nuclear power and the changes in Cato back in the day probably contributed more to Gary Johnson's name in peoples' mouths today than Rothbard's purity has.
Every ideology has both a "pure" and a "pragmatic"state mostly due to the quirks of human nature we all know "pure" socialism isnt possible any more than "pure" capitalism ,democracy,libertarian-ism and so on unless you change the very nature of humanity..the question then becomes how big of a gap is there between both positions and whether the core pillars of the ideology have been bent beyond recognition.. I suspect when opposition to private central banking was dropped the idealists realized the pragmatists mooring line had been officially cut and the Koch camp was adrift because that was NOT pragmatic..
There are many other positions that were problematic but that was one of the big ones along with the nuclear one back them.

The other problem with the "takeover the GOP from within plan" was that despite their efforts it didnt happen..in fact the secular centrist GOP that they were courting at the time ended up being taken over by the christian right and turned into a quasi theocratic abomination

And that's basically the point I'm working toward: you can clearly see the value in tacking to the majority when you're a national candidate, it's the nature of the beast. You may not agree with the mindset, but I doubt you'd argue it's done accidentally. So my question is, why does the Libertarian Party, when it casts a wider net, have much better luck pulling in from Conservatives than it does Liberals?
Because when you reduce all the ideologies they can be divided into Individualism vs Collectivism..Liberals tend to be collectivist..they put alot of emphasis on their identities, goals, rights, outcomes, etc look at the terms the DNC convention used "we are one""together""global village" ... (the danger of collectivism is the individual must entrust his rights to the collective but thats a whole other thread in itself)
Conservatism tends to attract individualists people who value independence,self reliance,oppose external interference ..the "dont tread on me" "from my cold dead hands" slogans come to mind....Not that there arent collectivists in the republican camp as well..the neo cons and Christian right for example but there are far more fish for libertarian nets in that pond
 
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