A QUESTION FOR THE OLD HEADS.....DID ILLMATIC REALLY HAVE AS MUCH OF AN IMPACT AS PEOPLE SAY.....

[daze23]

 

[SunZoo]

good point.

backpackers accounted for a good portion of the streets back then.

we're in agreement on that.

im just saying that being a backpack favorite in '94 had a longer reach than it did in '99.

I can attest to this. Big difference between the era where Jeru was on TV along with everybody else, by 99/2000 the gap between "commercial" and underground was exponentially wider.

 

[SunZoo]

simply put. nas was a rap city rapper. if you were mainly video soul, the box, mtv jams, etc; then nas was pretty avoidable. especially if you didn't have older kids or adult rap fans around you like that.

Even so, you not hearing about him is a completely separate topic from "did he have impact?". By '94 he was all over The Source, Rap City, YO! MTV Raps, etc. So somebody was checking for him on a mainstream level. Honestly I don't know how people avoided Nas in '94, unless they completely ignored all forms of rap media for a good 2-3 years.

How old were you in '94? That also has a lot to do with it, like Wacky D said.

Fred.

YO and rap city where the only reasons I even knew who he was, gang banger nikkas weren't riding or stackin to that shyt. Before the joint with lauren I just knew him as that nikka from that slow/boring ass song (one love)

I didn't like it/appreciate it because it just wasn't familiar, and in that era if they weren't on rap city/yo HEAVY it wasn't going to be easy to hear them/get into them on your own at that age.

The internets have been a gift and a curse.

 

[Kliq_Souf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illmatic

this wikipedia page aint long as hell for nuthin'

 

[Art Barr]

Art Barr you know ur my homie right?.... please give me some of wut your smoking

lets leave movies out of this and just talk about Pac's music... hit songs is hit songs...he was a certified Rap Star after I Get Around and Keep Your Head Up dropped.. how can u call him a nobody? if he didnt make the movie Juice he still wouldve been a rap star based on hit records







now explain why Nas wasnt in 2 of the biggest Eastcoast HipHop cyphers if illmatic made such a big impact?

Arsenio Hall cypher 1994


Yo Mtv Raps cypher 1995


because Nas was a nobody until It Was Written dropped in 1996

you still that dude, but still..
my dude...
I never said pac was not a platinum rapper.
I even said, pac was signed and given movie money as his debut and was always projected to be a platinum artist.
simply off of the draw of gangsta rap and the movie money feature with digital.[]
i should have been more indepth about him being, the hard gangsta element offspring of digital.
plus the same song feature, and what the connotation was behind him being a feature and typical westcoast gangsta rapper there as well

yet, and still that element, I left out is still neither here nor there.
when I discussed how pac was thought of from the standpoint of the general white male.
not the white cat into rap guy,...I mean the regular dude.
the regular dude at that time who would be the person dictating the status quo.
that particular person, did not know who pac even was as a platinum recording/movie artist.

I said pac was a nobody in the late 93, to early 94 era.

pac became the so-called mythical entity of 'pac' after the compounded pr blitz leading to matw, to jail/shooting and dr.
which was closer to a full year later than the release of the first sales envelope of illmatic.

illmatic dropped way before that, and even then...
culturally,...nas was leagues ahead of pac.
as far as perception was concerned, when it came to comparing both in 1994.

also,...
I know we not using arsenio and the yo cypher.
when one,..arsenio dissed the multi-platinum delasoul
to the effect dela dissed him on record.
to the point, in 1994..
arsenio was no longer culturally endorsed, in the way he was.
when, he took over late night originally.
I mean are you forgetting chunky A?

when, it comes to nas...on yo...
shyt,..i am well documented when it comes to nas as a no-show as a performer.
I said all that to say,....
we have no idea why he was not on, yo.
yet,,...
real talk....
yo, was horrifically programmed for that era.
so,....we really do not know what happened there, administratively.
as far as booking is concerned.

anyway,...
pac, was not the mythical can do no wrong pac, yet.
he was pac is always in trouble with the law and taken the wrong way type of cat.
since, the facts to all his cases were never pr'd completely back then.

you had to be on it,...
to know the full story.
yet, outside of that...
pac, was at best a sacrificial let's make a mockery of the black man, using pac type visage in the era I am speaking of.
pac, did not have the duality or the mythos behind him and his exploits when nas was out.

also,...i have already said in 1994.
as it pertains to the culture.
culturally, pac was not taken on a level higher than nas at that time.
pac was taken as a bigger popular culture draw, because he had mainstream permeation from other drawing avenues.
yet, as an actual skill based emcee and culturally.
nas, was viewed upon debut.
to be lightyears better than tupac.


art barr


art barr

 

[deeznutz]

you have to understand that album dropped in 1994........there were alot of good ass hip hop albums that dropped that year.......Illmatic gained attention because of Nas's lyricism and the production........it wasnt until the masses finally got a hold of the album that it truly had an impact.........people would always write great reviews for the album but it was a different time and news did not travel as fast as it does today.......that's why it took so long for people to hop on board......

^ this is exactly it. I didn't hear the actual album until like 95 and knew it was a classic at the time but u gotta remember we were swimming in classics by 94 they weren't really classics at that point cause it was the norm but I remember dudes around my way loving that album so yeah

 

[Art Barr]

I'll even concede that.

In '94 I was 11. But, I watched Rap City (and Video Soul, and Video Vibrations, and Yo!) regularly, and I had a radio.
Plus, my sisters were much older than I was and they had Columbia House, so they had almost everything
that came out. I mean, I was old enough to appreciate EPMD, Gangstarr, Brand Nubian, Tribe, and Pete & CL before this time. I just had never heard about Nas.

nas could have been really easy to miss out on back then.
all because of the print run to main source, breaking atoms was limited as fukk.
plus, one of the reason why it had low sales and support nationally.
as there were not really enough actual physical copies on the actual market to purchase.
it was not until the 95 reprinting on wax,..which at that time was an eternity even in the slow burn sales envelope era.
plus, the next follow up feature for nas on mc serch also had a limited print run, and I do not think that was ever reprinted. which means, on another related fun tid bit note.
mc search's second album, met the same low print run fate as prime minister pete nice's solo as well.

if, you missed nas,...
it could have easily been attributed to the print run to those actual singles.
although, those actual videos to those singles so-called charted on the video show countdowns.
urban videoshow countdowns are never indicative of actual store availability or actual sales closure number rates, either.
if you don't believe me..
even, in the sales spike era.
urban video countdown results never resulted in sales, and you can look no further than an artist like b2k for confirmation on that.

so, back then...
you could have missed out on nas.
even if you watched the video shows, out of sheer chance.
coupled with lack of actual availability to the material.
if you town never had a really good underground rap radio show.
you could have really missed out, on nas rather easily as well.

the people discussing sales and illmatic.
are easily exposing themselves.
as anyone who was around then.
knew culturally what nas was about if they were a real actual bboy.
not a head, but a bboy....
the so-called rap head, or the emotionally accepted fanatical rap fan tag.
the rap head did not become an actual accepted thing in the culture till 95.
as an large invasion toys polluted the culture in 93.
from the platinum impact, of cypress, tribe, and the image/style impact of souls of mischief.


art barr


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

^ this is exactly it. I didn't hear the actual album until like 95 and knew it was a classic at the time but u gotta remember we were swimming in classics by 94 they weren't really classics at that point cause it was the norm but I remember dudes around my way loving that album so yeah

all the classics of 1994, were certified classics.
so, nas was known as the actual classic with jeru and organized.
biggie later on was revised, and common got the it could be a classic 3.5 for resurrection.

so, at the time....
those albums that were out were classics.
or really highly rated at a high 3.5 or above.
similar to the artifacts, which was about a good four mic album.
even the little talked about boogie monsters was an actual real rated classic at that exact time.


art barr

 

[Big Mel]

you still that dude, but still..
my dude...
I never said pac was not a platinum rapper.
I even said, pac was signed and given movie money as his debut and was always projected to be a platinum artist.
simply off of the draw of gangsta rap and the movie money feature with digital.[]
i should have been more indepth about him being, the hard gangsta element offspring of digital.
plus the same song feature, and what the connotation was behind him being a feature and typical westcoast gangsta rapper there as well

yet, and still that element, I left out is still neither here nor there.
when I discussed how pac was thought of from the standpoint of the general white male.
not the white cat into rap guy,...I mean the regular dude.
the regular dude at that time who would be the person dictating the status quo.
that particular person, did not know who pac even was as a platinum recording/movie artist.

I said pac was a nobody in the late 93, to early 94 era.

pac became the so-called mythical entity of 'pac' after the compounded pr blitz leading to matw, to jail/shooting and dr.
which was closer to a full year later than the release of the first sales envelope of illmatic.

illmatic dropped way before that, and even then...
culturally,...nas was leagues ahead of pac.
as far as perception was concerned, when it came to comparing both in 1994.

also,...
I know we not using arsenio and the yo cypher.
when one,..arsenio dissed the multi-platinum delasoul
to the effect dela dissed him on record.
to the point, in 1994..
arsenio was no longer culturally endorsed, in the way he was.
when, he took over late night originally.
I mean are you forgetting chunky A?

when, it comes to nas...on yo...
shyt,..i am well documented when it comes to nas as a no-show as a performer.
I said all that to say,....
we have no idea why he was not on, yo.
yet,,...
real talk....
yo, was horrifically programmed for that era.
so,....we really do not know what happened there, administratively.
as far as booking is concerned.

anyway,...
pac, was not the mythical can do no wrong pac, yet.
he was pac is always in trouble with the law and taken the wrong way type of cat.
since, the facts to all his cases were never pr'd completely back then.

you had to be on it,...
to know the full story.
yet, outside of that...
pac, was at best a sacrificial let's make a mockery of the black man, using pac type visage in the era I am speaking of.
pac, did not have the duality or the mythos behind him and his exploits when nas was out.

also,...i have already said in 1994.
as it pertains to the culture.
culturally, pac was not taken on a level higher than nas at that time.
pac was taken as a bigger popular culture draw, because he had mainstream permeation from other drawing avenues.
yet, as an actual skill based emcee and culturally.
nas, was viewed upon debut.
to be lightyears better than tupac.


art barr


art barr

this is a fantastic post.

 

[Big Mel]

nas could have been really easy to miss out on back then.
all because of the print run to main source, breaking atoms was limited as fukk.
plus, one of the reason why it had low sales and support nationally.
as there were not really enough actual physical copies on the actual market to purchase.
it was not until the 95 reprinting on wax,..which at that time was an eternity even in the slow burn sales envelope era.
plus, the next follow up feature for nas on mc serch also had a limited print run, and I do not think that was ever reprinted. which means, on another related fun tid bit note.
mc search's second album, met the same low print run fate as prime minister pete nice's solo as well.

if, you missed nas,...
it could have easily been attributed to the print run to those actual singles.
although, those actual videos to those singles so-called charted on the video show countdowns.
urban videoshow countdowns are never indicative of actual store availability or actual sales closure number rates, either.
if you don't believe me..
even, in the sales spike era.
urban video countdown results never resulted in sales, and you can look no further than an artist like b2k for confirmation on that.

so, back then...
you could have missed out on nas.
even if you watched the video shows, out of sheer chance.
coupled with lack of actual availability to the material.
if you town never had a really good underground rap radio show.
you could have really missed out, on nas rather easily as well.

the people discussing sales and illmatic.
are easily exposing themselves.
as anyone who was around then.
knew culturally what nas was about if they were a real actual bboy.
not a head, but a bboy....
the so-called rap head, or the emotionally accepted fanatical rap fan tag.
the rap head did not become an actual accepted thing in the culture till 95.
as an large invasion toys polluted the culture in 93.
from the platinum impact, of cypress, tribe, and the image/style impact of souls of mischief.


art barr


art barr

this is also a fantastic post.

 

[Big Mel]

I was 11 in 94', but I'm from the hood where kids don't have a real childhood, so Illmatic definitely would have resonated with me and my peers where I'm from. Ever heard of Robert yummy Sandifer? He was living the life Nas was talking about on Illmatic as a ten year old in Chicago and every hood across America is full of Yummy's. Yummy was all over the media like Trayvon Martin in 94'. In 94', I was listening to Doggystyle, 36 Chambers and lots of local underground Bay Rap that I was surrounded by. I understood what they were talking about because people were really living that life all around me in the ghetto unlike some of these suburban Nas stans who ain't never even seen QB with their own naked eyes. As for Yo MTV raps and shyt, I grew up without cable TV potna, but I saw the Bay Area version Menace II Society live with my own eyes when I was only four feet high on the block where I used to reside. If you ain't from NY, I have no idea why you dikkride Nas so much because I'm sure Nas looks down on wherever you are from because everybody from NY thinks they've "seen everything" when they ain't never see a palm tree or smoked anything resembling Cali bomb weed .

718 to 818. I'm so blessed. AHHHHHHHH.

 

[mitter]

There's no question that the mark Illmatic left on the game was a slow burn. Who cares though? Whether it blew up right away or took time, the fact is, it blew up. Illmatic changed a lot of things. For one, how many rappers you know that managed to rap on a sample by the God Micheal Jackson? Nas was the first, and one of the FEW. Up until Illmatic most rap albums had 1 or 2 producers making ALL of the tracks. Nas had a gang of producers and was able to still release a cohesive project. He was one of the first rappers to ever do that too. Nas set the bar for lyricism. Jay Stans... please believe your boy Jay was LOVING that Illmatic shyt and studied it close, he even admits this himself. Illmatic earned the coveted 5 mic rating back when the Source actually meant something, in fact it was the bible. This thread exists in 2013, because we're still talking about Illmatic in 2013.

You don't have to make stuff up to try to support your argument

Public Enemy's "911 is a joke" had a Michael Jackson sample, as did other records

Illmatic was not the first album to have a variety of different producers. For instance, KRS-One released Return of the Boom Bap before Illmatic. Big Daddy Kane's second album had a host of different producers. I could name many others.

 

[Teko]

you really do not have a grasp of administration or even the capital involved to actually compare.
nas on Columbia in 1994.
incomparison to rocafella/priority in 1996.

priority was just coming off one of the greatest gangsta rap runs sales wise.
where they made money off of non-culturally endorsed based rap, at the top of the entire industry.
incomparison to Columbia,...
who really was not ruffhouse.
plus, on top of rocafella who also, had their actual own liquid capital to do way more.
on top of a much larger pool of movie money.
incomparison to nas's little zebrahead money,....

you trying to compare eddie murphy blockbuster sequel movie money, combined with legit drug dealer money.
to lowly mc serch in a small office on Columbia,..that is not even ruffhouse, and the most money they got for promo may have been zebra head.
did I mention,...the little money that zebra head had in promo.
illmatic really never got to follow up on,..
when it came to pr, permeation, and promo/marketing.
all because illmatic was delayed and did not come out anywhere near when zebrahead was slated to drop.
of which illmatic was one of the most significantly delayed debut albums behind big L, on that distributor.
I hope you do know that big L.
would be more on a popular level, if not for the longest delay in rap history on a sony distributed label.
also,..illmatic on top of all this fukkery.
illmatic also suffered from administrative fukkery.
all on top of a limited print run for the more than nine month delayed second single, it ain't hard to tell.
which, also was split between two different printings.
where the remix to it ain't hard to tell.
was a completely separate and even small limited print run, as well.

there is no way you are going to raise this issue.
when, you really have no full grasp of the timelines administratively, to support the comparisons you made.


art barr

Time and time again, you fail when it comes to facts. The project had international distribution and Columbia clearly thought that he was going to do good numbers. It was not some under the radar album that relied purely on word of mouth. STOP LYING!
It had five singles released to radio. NOT 1, NOT 2, NOT 3, NOT 4 but 5 SINGLES. From halftime to One love. Its extremely rare these days for albums to even get that many singles released to radio in this era of singles. Add the fact that it was supposed to be the second coming, pushed by the biggest rap and music magazines (The Source + Rolling Stone). Dude got the same push as Coolio but the album turned out to be a super slow seller.

 

[RTF]

I've read a number of articles by rappers who had to switch things up after Illmatic. Common and Jay-Z are among the bigger names.

 

[Still Benefited]

nikkas hate to believe the same tactics and circumstances that got Reasonable Doubt to be looked at the way it is today are some of the same tactics and circumstances that get Illmatic to be looked at as it is today....slowburners huh

The only difference is one album people were told is a 5 mic classic upfront and wasn't slept on....what's my proof of this?

Y'all will swear up and down nobody fuked wit RD when it dropped and tell us it was forced on us by media fluffing,Jay becoming a icon and fluffing it over the past 15 yrs....well look at how rappers talk about RD now like they was on to Jay the whole time,and new nikkas talkin like it was the soundtrack of nikkas lives in 95

Only difference between RD and Illmatic is that the hiphop bible told a segment of y'all nikkas Nas wuz god and his album was classic and you should cop it and you did and worshipped Nas as you should have....they didn't give u proper instruction on Jay and you slept.

Folks telling you in here how nikkas wuznt fukin wit Nas like that and folks wanna use the way illmatics talked about NOW among people worldwide as proof that the whole nation MUSTVE been fukin wit it heavy and folks is lyin....no that's not how it works,a segment of people fuked with it on orders or off legit excitment depending on location...but the nation unanimously chose different and chose to sleep on Nas/illmatic like y'all did jay and rnd and said "fuk what the Source talkin about".....point being downplaying RD becuz hella people slept back then and only came to they senses later on is done constantly and that's fair.....but we not gon act like there wasn't no sleeping goin on on Nas and Illmatics end either...and sit around talkin bout how it impacted the whole nation bcuz of how its acknoledged now when its based on the same methods used to get folks on RD like they are now.

Both albums deserve the love btw if that's mistaken from my post....they ain't fukin wit Doggystyle tho for whoever said that bullshyt