It's surface level because it lacks the emotion and I'm not talking vocally, I'm talking about the actual words. Not saying those songs aren't good, but he really gave us a 12 minute song. Why? You take 3-4 minutes or even a 1 minute of a Biggie storytelling joint and compare it. Take the 1st verse of "Brenda's Got A Baby". Pac made us feel for Brenda.
Are the big three better rappers than 2pac and Biggie.
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It's surface level because it lacks the emotion and I'm not talking vocally, I'm talking about the actual words. Not saying those songs aren't good, but he really gave us a 12 minute song. Why? You take 3-4 minutes or even a 1 minute of a Biggie storytelling joint and compare it. Take the 1st verse of "Brenda's Got A Baby". Pac made us feel for Brenda.
What about the actual words make you feel something for Brenda but not Keisha? Is it because it's more about the circumstances surrounding her day to day experience while Keisha's song is more about the reality of her day to day experience and focuses less on the circumstances? (I think that was the point of Keisha's song as a thematic follow up to Brenda's Got a Baby)
Because you might get dapped up and agreed with on here but you can jump on the YouTube channel and find thousands of people who disagree with your assessment about Keisha's Song being surface level and unable to make them feel for Keisha.
And yeah he gave us a 12 minute track, because he has that level of songwriting and depth to him and it made thematic sense to not only close out GKMC but a whole era of his persona with that track.
Biggie and Pac did show us they have great 1 minute stories, they did show us they had great 4 minute tracks, but they did not show us they could pull off a 12 minute thematic work of art that is well received the way Kendrick did. It is what it is, maybe they had that level of pen and maturity, we just didn't see it at an early age the way we saw Kendrick do it at 24
What about the actual words make you feel something for Brenda but not Keisha? Is it because it's more about the circumstances surrounding her day to day experience while Keisha's song is more about the reality of her day to day experience and focuses less on the circumstances? (I think that was the point of Keisha's song as a thematic follow up to Brenda's Got a Baby)
Because you might get dapped up and agreed with on here but you can jump on the YouTube channel and find thousands of people who disagree with your assessment about Keisha's Song being surface level and unable to make them feel for Keisha.
And yeah he gave us a 12 minute track, because he has that level of songwriting and depth to him and it made thematic sense to not only close out GKMC but a whole era of his persona with that track.
Biggie and Pac did show us they have great 1 minute stories, they did show us they had great 4 minute tracks, but they did not show us they could pull off a 12 minute thematic work of art that is well received the way Kendrick did. It is what it is, maybe they had that level of pen and maturity, we just didn't see it at an early age the way we saw Kendrick do it at 24
My point is that it doesn't take 12 minutes to showcase that. It takes away from the replay value because you're sitting through 12 minutes of a song AND a skit every time you're listening to it. It makes it a chore. It doesn't take 12 minutes to convey that.
You mention "Brenda" and its going to resonate far more than Kendrick's "Keisha", which some might confuse with a Wayne song because he has a story with the same character name. "Brenda's Got A Baby" was a moment. That is the song that introduced a lot of people to 2Pac. It didn't just detail her plight, but the family situation. Some of that story was taboo because it even touched on incest with Brenda's molestor being a cousin. And yes, there's even some day to day on Brenda's story from her resorting to failed attempts to sell drugs to prostituting herself to not only make money, buy to escape her Hell.
I got your point, and I'm saying Pac and Biggie didn't have that level of songwriting in them for it to be a discussion, period. Show us their thematic well received songs comparable to Sing About Me or just admit they never showed that likely because they just didn't have it. You claiming Kendrick is surface level compared to these two is WILD to me while you're sitting up here trying to spin their inability to put together a well received 12 minute song and focus on surface level 1 minute verses.
Brenda's gonna resonate because it was a great song, released as a single 20 years prior while Keisha's song is the spiritual sequel released as an album cut.
And yeah it's like I mentioned Brenda touches on her day to day and is more about her circumstances while Keisha touches on her circumstances (her mother's boyfriend molested her at a young age) and is more focused on her day to day. I don't think either perspective is deeper than the other as you need both to paint a full picture. You do find more value in the part of the story Pac told tho. I actually think Keisha's song is so dope because it works as an expansion as opposed to a retread and it adds to the picture being painted in Brenda's story.
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I got your point, and I'm saying Pac and Biggie didn't have that level of songwriting in them for it to be a discussion, period. Show us their thematic well received songs comparable to Sing About Me or just admit they never showed that likely because they just didn't have it. You claiming Kendrick is surface level compared to these two is WILD to me while you're sitting up here trying to spin their inability to put together a well received 12 minute song and focus on surface level 1 minute verses.
Brenda's gonna resonate because it was a great song, released as a single 20 years prior while Keisha's song is the spiritual sequel released as an album cut.
And yeah it's like I mentioned Brenda touches on her day to day and is more about her circumstances while Keisha touches on her circumstances (her mother's boyfriend molested her at a young age) and is more focused on her day to day. I don't think either perspective is deeper than the other as you need both to paint a full picture. You do find more value in the part of the story Pac told tho. I actually think Keisha's song is so dope because it works as an expansion as opposed to a retread and it adds to the picture being painted in Brenda's story.
Breh, Biggie has "I Got A Story To Tell", "Everyday Struggle", "Suicidal Thoughts", "nikkas Bleed", "You're Nobody", "Gimme The Loot". Some of these songs have fleshed out characters that have become a part of Hip Hop. Characters have been referenced in other artist's songs as cautionary tales. You're telling me Kendrick is better because he wrote a 12 minute song. I'm telling you, the length isn't even relevant. It's the content and moreso the impact of the content.
Kendrick wouldn't even have a canvas for "Keisha" if "Brenda" doesn't exist.
I'm saying you called Kendrick surface level compared to Biggie and Pac at their age and I'm giving you a song with layers and depth we never saw Biggie and Pac put together that he wrote at their age.
You can retract the statement, or keep telling me about how one minute verses are somehow deeper than a thematic piece that references and builds off songs and themes that exist in his catalog and closes out a classic album in a way everyone who heard it the first time and liked the album thought was damn near perfect.
What about "Sing About Me/Dying of Thirst" has these layers of depth that we never got from Biggie or Pac besides being 12 minutes long? Just because its 12 minutes lpng doesn't mean it has layers of depth.
Bondye Vodou
Proud practitioner of the "High Science"
Kendrick's song is good. But i grew up in the 90s
Sorry, I can't be wowed shyt I'm accustomed to.
Props to Lamar tho.
Bondye Vodou
Proud practitioner of the "High Science"
none of them come close to biggies pen...
pac however, ill let the tupac stans argue that
Pac is a punk and a crab, but them nikkas can't deliver a song like him. I grew up a 2 parent home, as a kid I remember almost breaking out in tears first time I heard this song. Lol
Dem nikkas ain’t seeing Face, Cube, Biggie, Nas….
Am I going to sit up here and break down all the stories being told, how they connect to his past work and all the ideas being discussed in this 12 minute track down...only for you to handwave everything away by cross referencing multiple songs across multiple tracks, bring 100% subjective ideas to the table that can neither be proven nor disproven about what you think is and is not depth and try to dismiss anything I say by somehow trying to both marginalize and use the length of the track a slight?
Because if I'm really gonna break this singular track down, I'm not trying to here nothing about Biggie brought up that theme in this track, Biggie talked about this theme in this other track, Biggie brought these ideas together in this other track, this idea isn't as deep as you think it's as deep as I think it is, Pac said that here, and he said that there, he was able to tie in the canon of his past work into his previous work here while he discussed this thing on this other track there, etc.
Am I going to talk about a verse where Kendrick paints this big picture, and you talk about a single bar from Biggie and act like that bar was as impressive as the entire verse I just broke down? Because I think these are things that you're going to do if I actually sit down and spend an hour of my day breaking this shyt down for you. All to avoid retracting your stance on depth and Kendrick somehow being surface level compared to Pac and Big (this is 100% nostalgia bias btw)
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Am I going to sit up here and break down all the stories being told, how they connect to his past work and all the ideas being discussed in this 12 minute track down...only for you to handwave everything away by cross referencing multiple songs across multiple tracks, bring 100% subjective ideas to the table that can neither be proven nor disproven about what you think is and is not depth and try to dismiss anything I say by somehow trying to both marginalize and use the length of the track a slight?
Because if I'm really gonna break this singular track down, I'm not trying to here nothing about Biggie brought up that theme in this track, Biggie talked about this theme in this other track, Biggie brought these ideas together in this other track, this idea isn't as deep as you think it's as deep as I think it is, Pac said that here, and he said that there, he was able to tie in the canon of his past work into his previous work here while he discussed this thing on this other track there, etc.
Am I going to hear about a whole verse where Kendrick paints this big picture, and you talk about a single bar from Biggie and act like that bar was as impressive as the entire verse I just broke down? Because I think these are things that you're going to do if I actually sit down and spend an hour of my day breaking this shyt down for you. All to avoid retracting your stance on depth.
What I'm telling you is that Pac did more in one verse of "Brenda" than Kendrick did in 12 minutes. Ever heard of the phrase "less is more". If we wanna talk storytelling, "Gimme The Loot" is ONE song, two characters by Biggie going back and forth and it's storytelling song. I not once mentioned bars, I'm talking songs, concepts, and depth. The actual stories, the emotion of the words.
You did exactly what I said you'd do in the post you quoted:
"only for you to handwave everything away by cross referencing multiple songs across multiple tracks, bring 100% subjective ideas to the table that can neither be proven nor disproven about what you think is and is not depth and try to dismiss anything I say by somehow trying to both marginalize and use the length of the track as a slight"
You're trying to dismiss any depth being brought to the table on Kendrick's behalf with simplicity on Pac and Biggie's behalf. I understand this is music which is an almost 100% subjective thing to discuss, but goddamn.
Breh, simplicity doesn't mean it's inferior and complexity doesn't make anything superior. That's about as subjective as it gets.
It's not the length of the track that's the slight. It's you trying to say that Biggie nor Pac had it in them to pen a 12 minute storytelling song. That's neither here or there. Joe Budden has a 10 minute storytelling joint that is dope on paper, but I haven't listened to it since the first time I listened to it.