Are Thomas Sowell's Arguments Just the Economic Equivalent of Flat Earth Theory?

[Black Panther]

For years now I've been aware of Thomas Sowell, the conservative intellectuals' supposed trump card against progressive/liberal/leftist political arguments (and against accusations of racism on the Right. )

I've read up on him on several occasions, and I've really tried to understand his arguments. Every time I hear him speak, or read any of his books, I'm usually left with more questions than answers.

To simplify, the various explanations that Sowell gives for what we observe about Black people in America don't seem to link up in any cohesive way. He usually points to the introduction of government welfare programs as the single most destructive thing to happen to Black wealth, even more than slavery and Jim Crow.

I can't find a definitive video or article that debunks Sowell's talking points, so I decided to ask these questions here. If anyone has any links or resources that answers any of these questions, please feel free to share them.

Here are my questions for Thomas Sowell:

• Where does Sowell get his statistics on Black poverty prior to 1960 from, and how can we trust them? (Who gave these statistics? How do we check their work?)
• What is/are the coefficient(s) that links the increase of Black poverty to the introduction of affirmative action welfare programs targeted at Black people? (Correlation does not imply causation. What is the causal relationship between these two things?)
• Why didn't we see the same destruction of wealth amongst white Americans who received those same benefits in the same timeframe (1960's onwards)?
• Hell, why didn't New Deal welfare programs destroy wealth for White Americans in the 1920's? What made the New Deal successful, but the War on Poverty (and beyond) unsuccessful, if welfare destroyed Black wealth?
• Most economists agree that homeownership is the single most powerful tool for families to build wealth. Experts, including experts in racial economics, are also aware that redlining was a pervasive problem leading to low rates of homeownership in the Black community. If both these things are true, how is welfare more damaging to Black wealth than lack of homeownership?
• Experts also note the types of employment Black Americans could find were mostly low-wage unskilled labor positions. If Blacks did hold positions that were similar to their White counterparts, they held them at lower rates, and were usually paid less than their white counterparts. If Black Americans were unable to participate in the economy in the same way as White Americans (hold the same types of jobs, make the same salaries, buy homes and other assets at the same rate, start businesses at the same rate), how was the economic position of Black America "better" prior to 1960?

There are more, but I'll leave these questions as they are for right now.

 

[DEAD7]

From what I remember(I’ll try to find the source) the breakdown of the nuclear family coincided with the introduction of welfare and affected all races.

Blacks were as usual hit hardest.


His belief(which I agree with) is that welfare subsidizes single parent homes.

 

[DEAD7]

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1953/article/pdf/employment-and-income-of-negro-workers-1940-52.pdf

I googled it and came right up.

 

[DEAD7]

Much of the rest is best answered by Dr Claude Anderson

“If white people get a cold, black people get pneumonia.” -Dr Claude Anderson

 

[Tony D'Amato]

From what I remember(I’ll try to find the source) the breakdown of the nuclear family coincided with the introduction of welfare and affected all races.

Blacks were as usual hit hardest.


His belief(which I agree with) is that welfare subsidizes single parent homes.

The breakdown of the black family started with slavery my good man

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

Dont waste your time with this BS theory

 

[Black Panther]

From what I remember(I’ll try to find the source) the breakdown of the nuclear family coincided with the introduction of welfare and affected all races.

Blacks were as usual hit hardest.


His belief(which I agree with) is that welfare subsidizes single parent homes.

The part I don't get is when he claims that this was more detrimental to Black wealth than slavery and Jim Crow.

Additionally, white wealth increased exponentially during the same time period, while having more people on welfare than Blacks.

Sowell may have had a point in the early 70's, but hindsight clearly tells us that welfare wasn't as impactful as he claims.

Single parent households aren't new, and aren't bound to the latter half of the 20th century, either. How does welfare alone explain the wealth inequality between whites and Blacks?

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

@Black Panther at some point you gotta zoom out and wonder why theres so few black academics that agree with the handful of black conservatives out there.

They all trot out the same ones: Sowell, Loury, McWhorter and a few more here and there....THATS IT. Theres a reason they're in the minority, literally, of opinion.

 

[Black Panther]

@Black Panther at some point you gotta zoom out and wonder why theres so few black academics that agree with the handful of black conservatives out there.

They all trot out the same ones: Sowell, Loury, McWhorter and a few more here and there....THATS IT. Theres a reason they're in the minority, literally, of opinion.

"We're not racist! Look, here's Thomas Sowell!"

*Throws ninja smoke bomb*

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

"We're not racist! Look, here's Thomas Sowell!"

*Throws ninja smoke bomb*

They're trying to do the same thing with Coleman Hughes. Dude literally graduated like 3 months ago after being groomed as a SOPHOMORE in college on "heterodox views on race" but now he's with the manhattan institute. They're masters at laundering their bullshyt

 

[Black Panther]

Just to explain the title of the thread, I was up late working, and was randomly listening to some Flat-Earth debunking videos.

For some reason my mind went back to Thomas Sowell's arguments, and I noticed the same pattern of argumentation between Sowell's arguments and Flat Earth theory.

He has to come up with ad hoc explanations as to why things like redlining, job/wage discrimination, lack of access to capital, and lack of education--much of which was legally backed via race-based legislation--have had less effect than welfare/social programs, and the explanations for each don't sync up with each other.

His theory of welfare's destructive effects on the Black community don't hold, especially when you control for every other factor except for race.

Did White single parent households on welfare/social programs see their economic outcomes get worse over time?

No?

Then welfare isn't the catalyst for the destruction of Black wealth. If anything, if it were true that the Black community was made worse by welfare, it's because it was standing on the shoulders of giants, so to speak. Those giants being...

Spoiler

Slavery, Jim Crow laws, and lack of civil rights protections preventing economic participation, whether explicit or implicit.

 

[DEAD7]

The part I don't get is when he claims that this was more detrimental to Black wealth than slavery and Jim Crow.

What he claims is the black nuclear family survived slavery and jim crow and was completely obliterated when welfare was introduced... not that welfare did more harm to directly to black people than slavery.

Additionally, white wealth increased exponentially during the same time period, while having more people on welfare than Blacks.

A higher percentage of black people were/are on welfare than whites. Looking at the total number distorts the impact.
That said, blacks were also systemically locked out of the nations wealth... and still are for the most part.

Sowell may have had a point in the early 70's, but hindsight clearly tells us that welfare wasn't as impactful as he claims.

What do you mean? It eliminated the biggest downside to being a single parent/teen parent... the shotgun wedding phenomenon died, because now the state would step in and play provider.
I believe the belief that welfare discourages marriage has been with it since the beginning.
Sowell isnt breaking any ground with his claims.

Single parent households aren't new, and aren't bound to the latter half of the 20th century, either. How does welfare alone explain the wealth inequality between whites and Blacks?

Ive never heard him or anyone claim it was welfare alone... just that welfare subsidized and increased the rate of family breakdown.
Govt. screwed blacks over on many fronts.

35 - Aid to Dependent Children was established
62 - reformed to aid "families" in attempt to combat the perception that the program discouraged marriage
64 - war on poverty
96 - we see a dip across the board when Clinton reformed welfare and put a 5yr limit on benefits

 

[Black Panther]

What he claims is the black nuclear family survived slavery and jim crow and was completely obliterated when welfare was introduced... not that welfare did more harm to directly to black people than slavery.

I beg to differ.

The "Black nuclear family" as Sowell defines it wasn't as common as you might think.

A higher percentage of black people were/are on welfare than whites. Looking at the total number distorts the impact.
That said, blacks were also systemically locked out of the nations wealth... and still are for the most part.

I certainly agree that historically, there have been more Black people per capita using welfare than Whites.

The problem is that White families living under similar circumstances saw the exact opposite effects during the same time period...wouldn't that be evidence that welfare isn't the catalyst?

Hint: The bigger catalyst is in your post above.

Ive never heard him or anyone claim it was welfare alone... just that welfare subsidized and increased it.

35 - Aid to Dependent Children was established
62 - reformed to aid "families" in attempt to combat the perception that the program discouraged marriage
64 - war on poverty
96 - we see a dip across the board when Clinton reformed welfare and put a 5yr limit on benefits

Does correlation imply causation?

Again,

What is/are the coefficient(s) that links the increase of Black poverty to the introduction of affirmative action/welfare programs targeted at Black people? (Correlation does not imply causation. What is the causal relationship between these two things?)

 

[ogc163]

Sowell's core argument is that the welfare state undermined concepts of downside risks in the Black community, and coupled with Black folks already being behind because of Slavery it had a dispaportionate impact on the Black community--vs it's impact on other communities who might have been hurt by welfare but didn't have the compound effect of slavery--from what I recall Sowell doesn't ignore the impact of slavery and racial discrimination but he doesn't feel its negative impact in modern times can primarily be fixed via government. If your stance is that he ignores slavery and racism then nah I don't recall him taking that stance, but if your stance is that he under weighs the impact of slavery and racism then yes that's a valid criticism of Sowell. But from what I remember he is generally careful not to overestimate the positive utility of the nuclear family and increase of traditionalist values, especially when I compare his writing to someone like Walter William's who annoyed me by consistently overestimating the pracitcal utility of traditionalism. Thus, Sowell's arguments are in line with other neoclassical right leaning Economists of his era who focused on a cost/benefit analysis of government intervention and concluded that generally intervention is counterproductive.

 

[Black Panther]

Sowell's core argument is that the welfare state undermined concepts of downside risks in the Black community, and coupled with Black folks already being behind because of Slavery it had a dispaportionate impact on the Black community--vs it's impact on other communities who might have been hurt by welfare but didn't have the compound effect of slavery--from what I recall Sowell doesn't ignore the impact of slavery and racial discrimination but he doesn't feel its negative impact in modern times can primarily be fixed via government. If your stance is that he ignores slavery and racism then nah I don't recall him taking that stance, but if your stance is that he under weighs the impact of slavery and racism then yes that's a valid criticism of Sowell. But from what I remember he is generally careful not to overestimate the positive utility of the nuclear family and increase of traditionalist values, especially when I compare his writing to someone like Walter William's who annoyed me by consistently overestimating the pracitcal utility of traditionalism. Thus, Sowell's arguments are in line with other neoclassical right leaning Economists of his era who focused on a cost/benefit analysis of government intervention and concluded that generally intervention is counterproductive.

Yes, I'm arguing that he's downplaying the impact of slavery/discrimination in favor of welfare. Even new information on the pervasiveness of racial discrimination hasn't made his viewpoint shift in over 40+ years.