Comic book dude goes in on Spider-Woman fiasco and Feminists

sun raw

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I'd have to agree with him.

You posit that there is a difference in the way male and female superhero by creating a nuance that fits your POV. For example; male characters don't have to be good looking? :huh: Yes, they usually are and their usually white (one could define that as a sexual standard).

Actually, I could do the same thing and say there is no difference.

The difference is in the presentation. If you watch a Michael Bay movie, the way he visually presents women is different from the way he presents men. I'm very influenced by film theory so ultimately my arguments are going to be expressed through that sort of lens and all the stuff written about the idea of a male gaze is what these people tend to talk about when talking about the ways women are presented in media. It's not a nuance I created, it's a nuance that has existed, at least in the film world, since the 1960s.

Yeah looking back at that with more hindsight, I got ahead of myself with the attractive male heroes part. I think there's still something to be said about how male heroes are drawn in a manner in which their physique reflects their superpowered status while female heroes swing wildly in the other direction. Are there many artists that draw muscular women? Jim Lee, I think (edit: Damn I'm pretty sure I'm confusing him with someone else I'll figure it out)? And I know people will be like "but that's just real life" but we're talking about superheroes so who cares.

Also if we're working from the assumption that movies, comic books, etc are made to appeal, visually, to a straight (white) male audience (an assumption that should be criticized, of course; I agree with Maddox here) then the guy doesn't want to fukk the male character, he wants to be him. You desire to be James Bond, you don't desire him sexually.

I don't even think the Spider-Woman cover itself is a big deal. I still think it's bad but that's because it's a lame cover by a good artist, not because of sexualization or whatever. shyt, it's not even the most ridiculous Marvel comic in terms of gender. And I guess this Spider-Woman comic is marketed towards female readers? The bigger deal is the very specific trends in media when it comes to the representation of women and very little of it has to do with "well women are afraid that people will look at them and also that people won't look at them."
 
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Easy-E

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The difference is in the presentation. If you watch a Michael Bay movie, the way he visually presents women is different from the way he presents men. I'm very influenced by film theory so ultimately my arguments are going to be expressed through that sort of lens and all the stuff written about the idea of a male gaze is what these people tend to talk about when talking about the ways women are presented in media. It's not a nuance I created, it's a nuance that has existed, at least in the film world, since the 1960s.

Yeah looking back at that with more hindsight, I got ahead of myself with the attractive male heroes part. I think there's still something to be said about how male heroes are drawn in a manner in which their physique reflects their superpowered status while female heroes swing wildly in the other direction. Are there many artists that draw muscular women? Jim Lee, I think? And I know people will be like "but that's just real life" but we're talking about superheroes so who cares.

Also if we're working from the assumption that movies, comic books, etc are made to appeal, visually, to a straight (white) male audience (an assumption that should be criticized, of course; I agree with Maddox here) then the guy doesn't want to fukk the male character, he wants to be him. You desire to be James Bond, you don't desire him sexually.

I don't even think the Spider-Woman cover itself is a big deal. I still think it's bad but that's because it's a lame cover by a good artist, not because of sexualization or whatever. shyt, it's not even the most ridiculous Marvel comic in terms of gender. And I guess this Spider-Woman comic is marketed towards female readers? The bigger deal is the very specific trends in media when it comes to the representation of women and very little of it has to do with "well women are afraid that people will look at them and also that people won't look at them."

That's my point; we're not talking about a Michael Bay movie. We're talking about a variant cover of a single Spider Woman issue.

This is my problem with this debate the whole "if it has one scratch, kill it with fire" crew that turn everything into a pandemic.

This is why I'm criticizing the compounding of issues. People are claiming to be uncomfortable with this one comic book cover because of the entire weight of sexism supposedly lay on it.

When taken into the context of the actual character, that is Spider-Women, we have to address the similarities she has with Spider-Man and the fact it didn't become a problem 'til a woman did it.

I am not arguing that there is no problem with sexism in comics (or media, in general), but, you are arguing that I don't understand there is sexism in media.

Yeah looking back at that with more hindsight, I got ahead of myself with the attractive male heroes part. I think there's still something to be said about how male heroes are drawn in a manner in which their physique reflects their superpowered status while female heroes swing wildly in the other direction. Are there many artists that draw muscular women? Jim Lee, I think? And I know people will be like "but that's just real life" but we're talking about superheroes so who cares.

:laugh: I'm not goin' let u slide on admitting that you're wrong but still send a parting shot.

Batman--my favorite comic book character--is in no way drawn in proportion of his powers. Apparently, he traveled the world for 5 years, learned every martial art and mastered mental gymnastics. But, he looks like a cut above prime bodybuilder Arnold. His body does not reflect his skill. It reflects; Look, he big and so he's a badass.

The proportions argument is invalid because it's fantasy and we shouldn't try to model our lives by other people, let alone fake people.

Also if we're working from the assumption that movies, comic books, etc are made to appeal, visually, to a straight (white) male audience (an assumption that should be criticized, of course; I agree with Maddox here) then the guy doesn't want to fukk the male character, he wants to be him. You desire to be James Bond, you don't desire him sexually.
Women make up half of comic readers. This is also while despite women being in the minority of characters and most overall characters are men, in tights.

We "want to be" these guys because of many reasons. These reasons include how women look at them.

Woman/girls readers are relevant to 30 inch biceps and 10 pack abs.

I don't even think the Spider-Woman cover itself is a big deal. I still think it's bad but that's because it's a lame cover by a good artist, not because of sexualization or whatever. shyt, it's not even the most ridiculous Marvel comic in terms of gender. And I guess this Spider-Woman comic is marketed towards female readers? The bigger deal is the very specific trends in media when it comes to the representation of women and very little of it has to do with "well women are afraid that people will look at them and also that people won't look at them."

That means we agree. And don't lump me with the feminist bashers. I don't know much about feminism to criticism it, either. I just don't like people targeting isolated events to make arguments about issues at large, when they don't need to.

Sidebar: I'm not sure if it was you, but, no poster talked about the way female characters have to be pretty. And yes, but, a lot that has to do with marketing. I've read a few graphic novels of Catwoman, Bat Woman & Bat Girl. And they're great stories than have to make business concessions that often demanding "pretty, slim white women"
 

Grifter

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Are you being wilfully blind to it?
Cause yup, no leg besides the storied history of sexualized female bodies in mainstream comic books, or the fact that the artist in question is known for his erotic art and based the figure on a earlier piece of work he did for penthouse.:whistle:
50b7c8306db8ccaf8b315dba4779c1ed.jpg

I'm not moralizing here but we have to see things for what they are.

:dwillhuh: But thats a comic book for a hardcore porn company though. :camby:
 

unit321

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So, I'm not going to beat around the bush. That cover was very erotic.
 

DaddyTime

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"Slut-shaming women for being sexual beings is wrong. Depictions of women as sexual beings is demeaning and wrong. These two contradicting statements are somehow supposed to make sense simultaneously. "

:banderas:
:whew:
 

Killer Instinct

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Maddox is wrong about this.

Funny how a site full of dudes who complain about the fact that black men are stereotyped by the media can't take five seconds to realize they are dismissing a historical and very common trope in comics featuring women. There is no precedent for Spider Man with his ass sticking out being sexualized. There is one for women. The next time you get mad about another white person dismissing the injustices and stereotypes black men face, remember that you posted in and agreed with this thread, making you a dumbass hypocrite.

Jesus Christ.
:snoop:
Negged.
 

sun raw

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That's my point; we're not talking about a Michael Bay movie. We're talking about a variant cover of a single Spider Woman issue.

This is my problem with this debate the whole "if it has one scratch, kill it with fire" crew that turn everything into a pandemic.

This is why I'm criticizing the compounding of issues. People are claiming to be uncomfortable with this one comic book cover because of the entire weight of sexism supposedly lay on it.

When taken into the context of the actual character, that is Spider-Women, we have to address the similarities she has with Spider-Man and the fact it didn't become a problem 'til a woman did it.

I am not arguing that there is no problem with sexism in comics (or media, in general), but, you are arguing that I don't understand there is sexism in media.



:laugh: I'm not goin' let u slide on admitting that you're wrong but still send a parting shot.

Batman--my favorite comic book character--is in no way drawn in proportion of his powers. Apparently, he traveled the world for 5 years, learned every martial art and mastered mental gymnastics. But, he looks like a cut above prime bodybuilder Arnold. His body does not reflect his skill. It reflects; Look, he big and so he's a badass.

The proportions argument is invalid because it's fantasy and we shouldn't try to model our lives by other people, let alone fake people.


Women make up half of comic readers. This is also while despite women being in the minority of characters and most overall characters are men, in tights.

We "want to be" these guys because of many reasons. These reasons include how women look at them.

Woman/girls readers are relevant to 30 inch biceps and 10 pack abs.



That means we agree. And don't lump me with the feminist bashers. I don't know much about feminism to criticism it, either. I just don't like people targeting isolated events to make arguments about issues at large, when they don't need to.

Sidebar: I'm not sure if it was you, but, no poster talked about the way female characters have to be pretty. And yes, but, a lot that has to do with marketing. I've read a few graphic novels of Catwoman, Bat Woman & Bat Girl. And they're great stories than have to make business concessions that often demanding "pretty, slim white women"

I think there's people that are genuinely upset about the cover and then there are others who rely on the perception that this is some scorched earth shyt going on because outrage sells. Like a lot of those articles are intentionally written to attract angry attention, stuff like the "this is what happens when men try to draw women" article. It's an intentionally click-bait-y title and it's bullshyt, of course.

The same way I can't blame Michael Bay for sexism in cinema, I can't blame one single thing for how women are represented in comics. Everything's gotta have proper context, context in this case being the overall trends in media regarding gender. But again it all goes back to the fact that outrage sells. Erasing this variant cover from history won't suddenly fix sexism in comic books.

Batman doesn't have superpowers, he's gonna be smaller than the other guys :troll: But for real, it also depends on who's drawing them of course. I really like the Bruce Timm animated universe stuff, even though his style is all about the large frame men/smaller frame women. I think when we're talking about escapism and fantasy, the proportions argument matters when these characters are presented as the pinnacle of (super)human physicality, as the idealized person.

I found this thing where they asked some artists to talk about comic book characters in regards to body diversity (http://comicsalliance.com/olympians-superhero-bodies-and-what-real-athletes-look-like/) and it shows that these are smart guys who know what they're doing.

The business concessions argument is a risky one, it reminds me of the argument that film producers will give about not giving leading roles to Black actors, the argument that the movies will do poorly internationally. The entire thing has become this feedback loop or something where readers demand a certain thing, a certain thing which is then provided by the comic book companies to the point where it almost becomes the standard and then if you want to see alternatives to the image that mainstream comic books sell, you have to go look for the lesser-known independent stuff.
 

GunRanger

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:lolbron:


The subway shyt is so true. fukking flyers in this day and age. that shyt is dirty and late always too
 
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