FrederickDouglas
All Star
According to many adherents to religion, the answer to the first question is a resounding no. The moral laws that govern our universe are immutable and any deviation from them is a sin against God. In fact, in a lot of Christian religions people have born and baptized into, that is a key issue. Universal sovereignty. Original sin. Jesus' sacrifice. Sin and death. All results of the first humans eating a fruit that God told them not to eat, therefore losing out on perfection and everlasting life. They passed that sin and imperfection down to their children and mankind became alienated from God.
Which begs the question...why give humans free will in the first place? Knowing the disastrous consequences misuse of free will would bring upon the first human parents and billions of others, why would a perfect loving God create humans with a feature that could potentially end in the misery we see around us? The explanation given is that God wants us to love us of our own free will. But what is the alternative? What's the point of free will if we can't use it to determine whether we will love God or not? If we choose not to love God, we are given a death sentence. That's not free will. That's like somebody putting a gun to your head and saying "Love me or don't. It's up to you. But if you don't, I'm going to kill you."
Plus love is not a calculated choice. For example, in the Bible, God condoned slavery, rape, and genocide. He had no qualms with killing thousands of people throughout the Old Testament (for reasons for said killings being trying to steady a wobbly ark i.e. "presumptuousness" or one prophet listening to a bonafide prophet from God who claimed inspiration and got eaten by a lion i.e. "deceived"). Genocide involved killing men, women who weren't virgins, and little boys, including the babies. The virgin girls were kept as sex slaves. If you witnessed an Israelite soldier plunge his blade through the body of your newborn child, you would think that person was an evil murderer, compelled by a demonic force, and there is nothing that could convince you otherwise.
So it all comes back to the matter of choice. Can you truly love someone who condoned such atrocities without being warped in the head yourself? You have no choice in who you love, it is something that naturally occurs over time. You cannot be commanded to love someone because, once again, that takes free will out of the question. If you are commanded, you are acting under obligation and not free will. The only way you can really love God out of free will is if God respected your choice without threat of punishment. If God did not condemn you for choosing not to love him, that is where free will really comes into play...you wouldn't feel forced or threatened or commanded. IF you decide to love God, without the threat of being punished for deciding otherwise, that would be the ultimate expression of true love stemming from really exercising free will.
Other issues involving free will come into play. People in pagan nations could not choose where they were born or what they were taught. Little boys could not choose whether God had them killed or not. So, with that being said, free will is only "free" if you have more than just a choice between life and death. If someone puts a gun to your head, overpowers and rapes you, you don't have "free" will. That's why the concept of free will is so tenuous. Most of our decisions spring from environment, home life, the way our brain is wired etc. You see how many people hate how they feel inside...and they commit suicide. Disease robs you of free will. Psychosis robs you of free will. Being born with mental impairment robs you of free will.
Unless you want to argue the point that some people have more "free will" than others...which is a complete injustice. A person with the capacity to make choices (and I dispute anyone's ability to make real choices that aren't already set in stone; i.e. natural determinism) on a far greater scale than someone else has much more "free will" and the ability to wield power over those people.
On top of that, free will means you should be able to decide what's right and wrong, that is a God-given right, and why would God punish you for exercising your God-given right, provided you don't infringe on the free will of others? That's the whole point. Why are there hundreds of thousands of religions? Supposedly free will. Free will is what enables people to accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God and focus primarily on the positive parts. Free will is also what enables people to see God sanction rape, genocide, and slavery in the Bible, while also professing to be a God of love, and accepting that the book is mythology.
Except I don't believe people truly have free will. After thousands (actually millions) of years of procreation and cause and effect, you have no real control over your actions and feelings...only the illusion of it. You are the result of innumerable reactions and you think the buck stops with you? That you can somehow react differently than what your brain is hardwired to do? Any change in thought pattern was going to happen regardless. Any preference, any action, any change in perspective, was already going to happen.
Now I do not believe in religious predetermination. I do not believe in a deity that has a plan (or purpose) for us all. The idea of predetermination contradicts free will and is just as problematic. But natural determinism, which I do believe, is just the inevitable result of how the universe operates. It is indifferent. If the trillions of reactions over trillions of years result in you being rich or poor or healthy or sick, there's no intelligent design behind it all. It's just molecules reacting. Cause and effect. Which takes away personal control.
Do I think that a serial killer and rapist can make a different choice? No. If they could, they would. However, a lot of people don't have a choice when it comes to their hatred of such vile actions. When the serial killer and the judge were in the womb, it was already going to end in a specific reaction. We fight and kill and seek revenge because we have no choice. We also pursue peace and spare lives and forgive because we have no choice. Successful people take pride in the choices they make, not knowing that's how it was going to turn out anyway.
People who believe in the Bible will either change or they won't. It's not their choice what path they choose. They have no choice but to get defensive and angry when their belief system is challenged...same as I have no choice to point out the holes in their belief system. Which is why life is inherently unfair. Whether you believe in God or evolution, life does not afford you the free will to change, unless it's already been determined that you will. The main issue in life is NOBODY is responsible for their actions and thought process. Someone you may view as "responsible" is just doing what 's been already determined, same as the "irresponsible" one. And you have been determined to judge one way or the other long before you were born.
So, is there good and bad if humans have no free will, no choice between "right and wrong"? Objectively speaking, no. There is no universal moral law. But, on a subjective level...which given determinism, is objectively how we'll feel...there is. And that is why there will continue to be murders, suffering, rape, disease, grief, loss and pain, because these things are subjectively either bad or good, but ultimately objectively neutral. That is also why there will continue to be affection, pleasure, excitement, euphoria, contentment, love, art, and fellowship. These things are subjectively bad or good, but ultimately objectively neutral. Most of the things I listed second, people would consider subjectively good. Most of the things I listed first, people would consider subjectively bad. But that is not always the case and the nuance of circumstances, plus the determined paths we're forced to take, mean that a person's life course could encounter and embrace any or all of these things.
I like to think of humanity as a constant struggle between right and wrong. I do not believe one is stronger than the other, or at least I don't want to believe that because if I did, I'd have to acknowledge that what I consider subjectively wrong exerts more power. But that is the most ideal scenario I can contemplate...that good and evil are equal in power, despite evolution tending to be subjectively evil and objectively indifferent. In my heart of hearts, I do think the world is an evil place with a little bit of good sprinkled in. You don't have free will but try it anyway. Try to improve your quality of life. In doing so, there's no guarantee that something worse won't come your way, but if it does, that's the way it was going to be.
But I'm strictly adhering to this idea of determinism through my sense of logic. I cannot say I know anything for sure. Maybe humanity does have more autonomy than I give it credit for. If that's the case, maybe we can improve, if not the world, at least ourselves. And if not, it's still a beautiful fantasy.
Which begs the question...why give humans free will in the first place? Knowing the disastrous consequences misuse of free will would bring upon the first human parents and billions of others, why would a perfect loving God create humans with a feature that could potentially end in the misery we see around us? The explanation given is that God wants us to love us of our own free will. But what is the alternative? What's the point of free will if we can't use it to determine whether we will love God or not? If we choose not to love God, we are given a death sentence. That's not free will. That's like somebody putting a gun to your head and saying "Love me or don't. It's up to you. But if you don't, I'm going to kill you."
Plus love is not a calculated choice. For example, in the Bible, God condoned slavery, rape, and genocide. He had no qualms with killing thousands of people throughout the Old Testament (for reasons for said killings being trying to steady a wobbly ark i.e. "presumptuousness" or one prophet listening to a bonafide prophet from God who claimed inspiration and got eaten by a lion i.e. "deceived"). Genocide involved killing men, women who weren't virgins, and little boys, including the babies. The virgin girls were kept as sex slaves. If you witnessed an Israelite soldier plunge his blade through the body of your newborn child, you would think that person was an evil murderer, compelled by a demonic force, and there is nothing that could convince you otherwise.
So it all comes back to the matter of choice. Can you truly love someone who condoned such atrocities without being warped in the head yourself? You have no choice in who you love, it is something that naturally occurs over time. You cannot be commanded to love someone because, once again, that takes free will out of the question. If you are commanded, you are acting under obligation and not free will. The only way you can really love God out of free will is if God respected your choice without threat of punishment. If God did not condemn you for choosing not to love him, that is where free will really comes into play...you wouldn't feel forced or threatened or commanded. IF you decide to love God, without the threat of being punished for deciding otherwise, that would be the ultimate expression of true love stemming from really exercising free will.
Other issues involving free will come into play. People in pagan nations could not choose where they were born or what they were taught. Little boys could not choose whether God had them killed or not. So, with that being said, free will is only "free" if you have more than just a choice between life and death. If someone puts a gun to your head, overpowers and rapes you, you don't have "free" will. That's why the concept of free will is so tenuous. Most of our decisions spring from environment, home life, the way our brain is wired etc. You see how many people hate how they feel inside...and they commit suicide. Disease robs you of free will. Psychosis robs you of free will. Being born with mental impairment robs you of free will.
Unless you want to argue the point that some people have more "free will" than others...which is a complete injustice. A person with the capacity to make choices (and I dispute anyone's ability to make real choices that aren't already set in stone; i.e. natural determinism) on a far greater scale than someone else has much more "free will" and the ability to wield power over those people.
On top of that, free will means you should be able to decide what's right and wrong, that is a God-given right, and why would God punish you for exercising your God-given right, provided you don't infringe on the free will of others? That's the whole point. Why are there hundreds of thousands of religions? Supposedly free will. Free will is what enables people to accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God and focus primarily on the positive parts. Free will is also what enables people to see God sanction rape, genocide, and slavery in the Bible, while also professing to be a God of love, and accepting that the book is mythology.
Except I don't believe people truly have free will. After thousands (actually millions) of years of procreation and cause and effect, you have no real control over your actions and feelings...only the illusion of it. You are the result of innumerable reactions and you think the buck stops with you? That you can somehow react differently than what your brain is hardwired to do? Any change in thought pattern was going to happen regardless. Any preference, any action, any change in perspective, was already going to happen.
Now I do not believe in religious predetermination. I do not believe in a deity that has a plan (or purpose) for us all. The idea of predetermination contradicts free will and is just as problematic. But natural determinism, which I do believe, is just the inevitable result of how the universe operates. It is indifferent. If the trillions of reactions over trillions of years result in you being rich or poor or healthy or sick, there's no intelligent design behind it all. It's just molecules reacting. Cause and effect. Which takes away personal control.
Do I think that a serial killer and rapist can make a different choice? No. If they could, they would. However, a lot of people don't have a choice when it comes to their hatred of such vile actions. When the serial killer and the judge were in the womb, it was already going to end in a specific reaction. We fight and kill and seek revenge because we have no choice. We also pursue peace and spare lives and forgive because we have no choice. Successful people take pride in the choices they make, not knowing that's how it was going to turn out anyway.
People who believe in the Bible will either change or they won't. It's not their choice what path they choose. They have no choice but to get defensive and angry when their belief system is challenged...same as I have no choice to point out the holes in their belief system. Which is why life is inherently unfair. Whether you believe in God or evolution, life does not afford you the free will to change, unless it's already been determined that you will. The main issue in life is NOBODY is responsible for their actions and thought process. Someone you may view as "responsible" is just doing what 's been already determined, same as the "irresponsible" one. And you have been determined to judge one way or the other long before you were born.
So, is there good and bad if humans have no free will, no choice between "right and wrong"? Objectively speaking, no. There is no universal moral law. But, on a subjective level...which given determinism, is objectively how we'll feel...there is. And that is why there will continue to be murders, suffering, rape, disease, grief, loss and pain, because these things are subjectively either bad or good, but ultimately objectively neutral. That is also why there will continue to be affection, pleasure, excitement, euphoria, contentment, love, art, and fellowship. These things are subjectively bad or good, but ultimately objectively neutral. Most of the things I listed second, people would consider subjectively good. Most of the things I listed first, people would consider subjectively bad. But that is not always the case and the nuance of circumstances, plus the determined paths we're forced to take, mean that a person's life course could encounter and embrace any or all of these things.
I like to think of humanity as a constant struggle between right and wrong. I do not believe one is stronger than the other, or at least I don't want to believe that because if I did, I'd have to acknowledge that what I consider subjectively wrong exerts more power. But that is the most ideal scenario I can contemplate...that good and evil are equal in power, despite evolution tending to be subjectively evil and objectively indifferent. In my heart of hearts, I do think the world is an evil place with a little bit of good sprinkled in. You don't have free will but try it anyway. Try to improve your quality of life. In doing so, there's no guarantee that something worse won't come your way, but if it does, that's the way it was going to be.
But I'm strictly adhering to this idea of determinism through my sense of logic. I cannot say I know anything for sure. Maybe humanity does have more autonomy than I give it credit for. If that's the case, maybe we can improve, if not the world, at least ourselves. And if not, it's still a beautiful fantasy.
