Religion/Spirituality If God has a plan for everyone how do we have freewill?

[gho3st]

I'm talking about people who reject the notion of a power greater than themselves and all they can see. Not people who already believe in some force they can't define. This is also what I keep reiterating. The arrogance and sudden butthurt feelings when ppl think their coc00n of belief is under attack. The funny thing is if I showed you how to make a million dollars in one month you would hang on to every word. This is why emotional objectivity is important if you're engaged in discourse with the intention of learning how another person views existence. You proved what ur acting offended by. You misunderstood my opening statement and then put a blindfold on and started getting emotional. STOP TRYING TO UNFOLD SCROLLS.

If you were trying to learn Chinese from a Chinese immigrant,smart dumb nikka.

How do learning a language or boxing compare to questioning contradictions in a religion?

 

[tmonster]

I'm talking about people who reject the notion of a power greater than themselves and all they can see. Not people who already believe in some force they can't define.

oh now that you clarify I take it back

 

[Marl0 Stanfield]

The part about the conveyor belt is the key. It's a metaphor for existence, life. How we're born the same way and ultimately physiologically we die the same way, but all the paths in between, no matter how crazy, are still of the same path you started on from the beginning. Like Jesus said, broad is the path that leads to destruction.

We're all going to die, but what happens after depends on what you believed in, and your belief determines your actions which determines your path. You may think you have free will, but it's just an illusion. The same as how ppl don't realized just one radical change in the molecular structure of something they unknowingly depend on and everything would cease.

Like different pieces of candy on a belt. The candies vibrate and can move and flip and shift around and those movements determine which path on the belt the candy takes. The candy might think it's doing its own thing in its own little world, but there are many greater powers than the candy, and all those powers are under the control of the Source of all things, The Singularity, God. The intelligent design behind natural selection evolution. The inherent need for survival is designed by the Singularity to determine a desired outcome.

An organism can't grow and evolve without the sun. The sun can't burn without light from the other stars in the universe. Other stars pull their light and rinse and repeat to The Source who receives it back in reverse, either in a loop or back the same way in reverse through the same path in the form of pure light for eternity.

Technically we are all stars, a molecular cloud experiencing radioactive decay until we de-evolve back to pure light and sent back to the Source. We haven't reached Ultimate Decay yet so we're still absorbed as matter (or gases) back into the earth and it's matter and our light goes out into the stars before being pulled to the Source and after that depends on belief.

Capisce?

 

[badhat]

You may think you have free will, but it's just an illusion.

There you go, that's all you had to write.

 

[hayesc0]

There you go, that's all you had to write.

Agreed this make sense if there is a higher power but the bad things happening people going to hell and not heaven and the suffering does not.

 

[badhat]

Agreed this make sense if there is a higher power but the bad things happening people going to hell and not heaven and the suffering does not.

Calvinism covers the whole concept of fatalism pretty well. I gotta say, it's not my favorite conception of free will, but it covers its ass.

 

[Marl0 Stanfield]

Brehs, you going to the Lake of Fire is your body after the reversal of the path of the pure light from carbon based life forms from the stars back into their original forms before "the 1st death" which is the first lvl of ultimate decay down into pure light. You're then flung off of the earth by the gravitational force of the Earth being sucked back to the Quasar, and this is through the ultimate destruction of that time loop aka path of pure light in which all matter is being sucked back through to the Quasar aka physical location of Heaven.

A Near Death Experience is your essential fundamental molecular cloud with your pure light (because you're constantly gaining pure light from the Source and losing it the same way hence, "God giveth and God taketh away") leaving your flesh and blood and being sucked through the path of pure light in a trip through your life story guided by a brighter "soul" either to Heaven and back, the brightest part of a Quasar aka Hell, or on Earth or through space during your time of NDE or at a future or past period, then you're sucked back into your body.

It's literally impossible to explain. Like you're experiences are mirrored like every moment in ur life if in Windows Vista windows in a winding crazy path. And this is just a few of the possible explanations and I say possible because what I've been shown is just one possible way of things.

Why? Because all these other galaxies are sister and brother realms with their own infinitely mirrored time continuums and light paths before being sucked back to the Quasar, for destruction or their own infinitely mirrored time continuums in the presence of the Quasar I can't say. It actually bothers the shyt out of me to be shown certain shyt but have infinitely mirrored realities interfere.

I won't go through that but uh yeah brehs, that's hell and all that, were your molecular cloud burns forever sustained by the presence of the Quasar aka the Kingdom of Heaven. What I previously saw was the new Jerusalem that will "descend" on "Earth". Remember, the physical fleshly lvl is us here, that's how I was able to distinctly see.. ah fukk it's too fukking multilayered to explain.

That's how I know The Torah is the truth, first and foremost from it stating that God created the heaven and earth, which is the skies and void of space and matter. Then He created light and darkness, which is pure light aka radiation and mass to the earth aka matter to block the light and blanket the universe. Along with the impulses of good and evil through the pure impartial light of knowledge, in the good/evil sense as well.

Like I said in my one thread, the beauty of Hebrew is it's multilayered in the storytelling of the Torah and parts of the New Testament written by Hebrew apostles.

On a basic lvl it has 3 layers: The spiritual, the physical, and the live and direct aka the letters from the apostles and the eyewitness accounts like Revelation.

The story of Nimrod explains the origin of mystery Babylon and its evolution into Greek mythology and then Roman paganism, which was combined with Celtic and Germanic paganism to form the Catholic Church and the paganism arrived from Japheth, who's described as an ancestor of CACz from their own genealogical records from antiquity, during their pagan period with no jews in sight.

Not to mention I just let y'all know the secret to the whole thing, which is the cosmos. Astronomy. Pagan nations had kings and astronomers/priests.

That's why the Catholic Church was so vehemently opposed to science because basic astronomy along with (also banned) the Bible would give clues to origins of people and time periods and they would figure things out, at least the few that were literate. They'd definitely know their role in the end by following this apostate church.

Like, brehs, srsly, if u really believe in evolution then that's evidence right there that the Jews are the most advanced intellectually by their domination of the most powerful nation in the history of mankind, the U.S. A tiny nation of people scrapping their way through lesser opponents in history and being this far on the world stage is evidence.

Clear evidence of natural selection favoring the Jews, so whatever they believe that has gotten them this far would naturally be the best belief system to employ to get as far in this life as possible as far as we know until Jews are extinct. Or absorbed into a more dominant tribe. Cuz outright slaughter has repeatedly been attempted and the Jews just keep coming back with their spiritual belief system intact.

I like to think of the early Torah stories as African stories, knowing the people were black and how these customs were developed tribally. There weren't even CACz back then when the Torah first started being told and written.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

you are giving examples of talent and ability not choice lol

Back up a little bit and pretend that you're trying to understand something instead of just arguing.

Talents and abilities are what limit or enhance our choices.

The example you gave right from the beginning was of someone who lacked a particular ability, which therefore made him unable to make a particular choice. I am pointing out that this applies to absolutely everyone. There's no true dividing line, "This person is disabled and can't do their own thing" and "This person is fully abled and can do whatever they dream of!" In reality, everyone has ranges of abilities in different areas, and everyone has weak areas and blind spots that make it harder for them to make certain choices than it would be for other people.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

The points of the allegory of Eden (it's obviously an allegory - read Genesis chapters 1 and 2 and you'll notice that they don't even work together if you try to take them literally like the modern Fundamentalists do) are the following:

* God made this world to be good. It's not the gnostic dualism crap, where the soul is good and the body is bad, where created things are bad and spiritual things are good. God's creation really is meant to be good.

* God made you, human, to be good. He loves you and he thinks well of you.

* God gave the world to us to take care of. It's our responsibility, not something we can just blow off or abuse.

* God wants to be in relationship with us, to walk alongside us. If we choose to listen to his wisdom and walk alongside him, this could be a beautiful, perfect world. But we will make choices that deviate from that, and as long as we make those choices (as a collective, this isn't some Western individualistic story), then the world will continue to deviate from perfection.

 

[hayesc0]

Back up a little bit and pretend that you're trying to understand something instead of just arguing.

Talents and abilities are what limit or enhance our choices.

The example you gave right from the beginning was of someone who lacked a particular ability, which therefore made him unable to make a particular choice. I am pointing out that this applies to absolutely everyone. There's no true dividing line, "This person is disabled and can't do their own thing" and "This person is fully abled and can do whatever they dream of!" In reality, everyone has ranges of abilities in different areas, and everyone has weak areas and blind spots that make it harder for them to make certain choices than it would be for other people.

I disagree im arguing because i dont feel like you are making sense but i am done with the thread to be honest.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

you see the problem
you have decided to give god an excuse for being omnipotent and benevolent while creating flawed people who suffer in his creation
but maybe people suffer in the world because there is no omnipotent and benevolent god

Then there wouldn't even be a world, because there wouldn't have been anything to bring space/time, reality itself, into existence.

If you know the least about physics, you know that nothing in it answers that question of reality for you at all.

Of course, the fact that you can't explain the existence of the physical world itself doesn't automatically force you to believe in God, and much less the Christian God specifically. But it's a more meaningful show-stopper than, "people suffer....therefore must not be a God!"

Some people get so caught up in their own belief systems that they assume reality automatically affirms them, even though they've never even thought it out from the other side with any depth. The imagined "No suffering ever happened or ever will be" world that they assume their imaginary 'god' would have created doesn't make any sense if any sense of humanity is maintained. But you stick on with the simplistic view instead of the thought-our view.

This is happening on both sides of the conversation right now, btw - tunnel vision certainly isn't limited to close-minded atheists.

we are back to the heliocentric vs geocentric planetary system all over again

That makes about as much sense as an analogy as saying, "we are back to a static universe vs. a beginning to time all over again".

First off, meaningful moral/ethical/philosophical/metaphysical debates have almost nothing in common with scientific debates.

Second, whatever version of the Galileo debate you were spoonfed probably left off the fact that Galileo was a devout Christian who wrote brilliant Biblical exposition, stuff I still quote today, much better than what the institutionalized church leadership was putting out.

Third, the Big Bang Theory was brought up by a Catholic priest, and atheists of the time challenged it because having a beginning to the universe didn't fit their "no Creator" worldview. But you probably don't like quoting examples where the church was right and your homies were wrong, eh?

except my explanation is so much simpler, and consistent with many more objective findings in daily experience

Failing to account for reality itself is quite a big flaw of a "simple" model.

Newton's laws are far simpler than relativity and quantum physics. Doesn't make them closer to reality. Heck, relativity was so complex that when Einstein first came up with it, even most physicists took decades to be able to conceptualize it for themselves.

As far as a materialistic-only universe "consistent with many more objective findings in daily experience", the vast majority of people over the vast majority of time would disagree with you there. That doesn't make them right. But it should highlight how deeply you are engrossed in confirmation bias, when you just assume that daily experience should affirm your worldview as billions of people prove otherwise.

I am also not omnipotent and can't you see how convenient it is that the God to human relationship seems to conveniently mirror the parent to child relationship....why it's almost as if the description of God was written by parents or human beings or something who were describing concepts from their actual lives and not by a deity who knows all of fukking space and time
ironic huh?

By ignoring the implications of what I said in order to hit back, you missed the whole point.

Do you believe this world is a bad place with suffering? Do you think that your children will hurt themselves and suffer as a consequence? Then why bring them into it at all? It's YOUR choice to create your own children...if you really think the world is as bad a place as you claim, you wouldn't do it. Yet atheists continue to go on making babies for the most part.

Heck, why do you keep living, if the world's so bad?

Truth is, you believe that this world (that God created) is a world worth living in. If you didn't, you would have taken an exit strategy yourself, and you certainly wouldn't bring no kids into it. But you have faith and hope in this world, just like God does. Of course, people's choices will continue to make it .worse than it should be. But certainly not so bad that we'd be better off without it.

If you love your children, and bring them into the world anyway, then you can imagine how God could love his children and still bring them into this particular world anyway. Even if you don't believe that it's a "perfect" world, you prove through your own actions that you think it's a world worth creating. (and you've shown that you've done very little thinking out of why your "perfect" world would actually be better.)

As far as analogies from our daily experience being used to describe ultimate realities being "convenient"...wha? "I got an idea...why don't we help them understand this concept by giving examples they DON'T understand." That would be really useful, eh? Of course explanatory analogies are going to be taken from daily experience - otherwise you lose the whole point of making an analogy. Again, your tunnel vision leads you to believe that you've made some logical point when you're just being ignorant about the actual process that's going on.

you claim to know that god has a plan for every man's life because he created a complex world,

Actually, no, I said from my very first post on this thread that I don't believe god has a plan for every man's life.

answer this below and you will see the circle

why do you believe that he created the world?

Because true love can only be given and received when there is something external to oneself. He created something external to himself, that could chose on its own to reject him or accept him, to do good or to do evil. That's the only way that God could show true love, true compassion, true mercy - loving yourself, or loving something only as long as it's perfect and faultless, isn't real love. And its the only kind of beings he could have created who could feel and demonstrate those things too. That's why he didn't make the robot world.

You seen a mother sacrifice for her children? A husband sacrifice for his wife? Parents who love their child so much they let him do his own thing even if they disagree, and still love him anyways? Children who love their parents and forgive even their mistakes? A man who loved his enemies? A woman who will do anything for her friends? A little kid who shares his only toy? People who worship God, trouble in their life and all, and truly find joy in it?

Things like that, and many more, are why this world was worth creating.

 

[tmonster]

Then there wouldn't even be a world

circular reasoning

That makes about as much sense as an analogy as saying, "we are back to a static universe vs. a beginning to time all over again".

you have no idea what you are saying, this is gibberish
we are gonna stop here and I will ignore the rest of your postings in this matter

 

[Jimi Swagger]

If God has a plan for everyone how do we have freewill?

Similiar to the right to vote and supposed freedom if choice. Presedential candidates are chosen within confines but no matter who wins the same planned agendas and legislation are pushed. Its free will within parameters and no matter what circumstances the end result will be the same. Some people are pre destined to be absolute shyt which is why bad things happen regardless of the luck they encounter. Their purpose is to remind people of what not to be, not to align with, or perhaps atone for ratchet bloodline/family behaviors lifetimes past, in another lifetime maybe they can be great. Others seem to navigate and overcome unfortunate circumstances due to favor bestowed upon them. It's innate and predetermined. You can see it in the eyes and behaviors of babies and children and can generally tell who will be redeemers and saviors and who wont be shyt. But people often lie to themselves with "all beings are equal and babies are blessings" rhetoric, tampering with the Creators plan which is why the world is utter shyt. God even plans to pepper these 35 year old dope boy loving grannies, emasculated men, and their Dirty Fanta drinking progeny...a lesson for humanity.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

tmonster, where did space and time come from?

Since I quoted a famous debate in physics and you called it "just gibberish", I'm guessing that you haven't actually talked about these topics with someone knowledgeable before. You have a choice now - to ask me questions that will help you understand, or to keep on keeping on with the beliefs you have without ever trying to look deeper into the other side's view.

 

[Drip Bayless]

Assuming you believe in god, consider for the moment that you're trying to understand a concept that an omnipotent entity created and uses to govern the lives of his creations. Of course it's not going to make sense to you or anyone.

Can God be in two places at once? If you believe in an omniscient god then the answer is yes. Now try explaining how it's possible to be in two places at once, let alone ALL places at once.

This is God we're talking about...consider who you're trying to place into a human context of understanding...and then just stop

Atoms can be at two places at once at the quantum level