JahFocus CS

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This thread is a spin-off from http://www.thecoli.com/threads/the-official-socialism-thread.155127/. Time and time again on this board, inaccuracies and misconceptions are promoted about socialism, what it is based on, and what it means. For someone unfamiliar with socialism, it can be difficult to jump into a thread like the Official Socialism Thread or any of the dozens of threads each month featuring pitched debates on the issue and know what is really being discussed, what the lines of argument are, and what is being proposed.

The purpose of this thread is to provide foundational information for those interested in learning about, discussing, and even critiquing socialist ideas. So this thread has a narrower focus than the Official one, primarily looking at historical materialism, class conflict, and conditions under capitalism. I think this is a legitimate basis for this thread to be created and it is not redundant (we get repetitive threads all the time on here but I try to avoid it).

I ask the mods to not tolerate thread derails and trolling in here.

================================================================================

As the thread grows, I will come back and edit this, linking to specific posts that do a good job of addressing basic ideas.

Topic / Idea:
Historical Materialism (hasn't capitalism always been around?)
Exploitation of Labor (what is exploitation?)
Who Produces the Wealth in Society? (60 minute audio presentation from Socialism 2014 conference)
 
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JahFocus CS

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What is the Marxist theory of history? What does "historical materialism" really mean? Hasn't "capitalism" always existed? This is a good article that gets at the meat of these questions: What is historical materialism? - A study guide with questions, extracts and suggested reading.

Excerpt:

Historical Materialism is the application of Marxist science to historical development. The fundamental proposition of historical materialism can be summed up in a sentence: “it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence that determines their consciousness.” (Marx, in the Preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy.)

What does this mean? Readers of the Daily Mirror will be familiar with the “Perishers” cartoon strip. In one incident the old dog, Wellington wanders down to a pool full of crabs. The crabs speculate about the mysterious divinity, the “eyeballs in the sky,” which appears to them.

The point is, that is actually how you would look at things if your universe were a pond. Your consciousness is determined by your being. Thought is limited by the range of experience of the species.

We know very little about how primitive people thought, but we know what they couldn't have been thinking about. They wouldn't have wandered about wondering what the football results were, for instance. League football presupposes big towns able to get crowds large enough to pay professional footballers and the rest of the club staff. Industrial towns in their turn can only emerge when the productivity of labour has developed to the point where a part of society can be fed by the rest, and devote themselves to producing other requirements than food.

In other words, an extensive division of labour must exist. The other side of this is that people must be accustomed to working for money and buying the things they want from others - including tickets to the football - which, of course, was not the case in primitive society.

So this simple example shows how even things like professional football are dependent on the way society makes its daily bread, on people's “social existence”.

After all, what is mankind? The great idealist philosopher Hegel said that “man, is a thinking being.” Actually Hegel's view was a slightly more sophisticated form of the usual religious view that man is endowed by his Creator with a brain to admire His handiwork. It is true that thinking is one way we are different from dung beetles, sticklebacks and lizards. But why did humans develop the capacity to think?

Over a hundred years ago, Engels pointed out that upright posture marked the transition from ape to man, a completely materialist explanation. This view has been confirmed by the more recent researches of anthropologists such as Leakey. Upright posture liberated the hands for gripping with an opposable thumb. This enabled tools to be used and developed.

Upright posture also allowed early humans to rely more on the eyes, rather than the other senses, for sensing the world around. The use of the hands developed the powers of the brain through the medium of the eyes.

Engels was a dialectical materialist. In no way did he minimise the importance of thought - rather he explained how it arose. We can also see that Benjamin Franklin, the eighteenth-century US politician and inventor, was much nearer a materialist approach than Hegel when he defined man as a “tool-making animal.”

Darwin showed a hundred years ago that there is a struggle for existence, and species survive through natural selection. At first sight early humans didn't have a lot going for them, compared with the speed of the cheetah, the strength of the lion, or the sheer intimidating bulk of the elephant. Yet humans came to dominate the planet and, more recently, to drive many of these more fearsome animals to the point of extinction.

What differentiates humanity from the lower animals is that, however self-reliant animals such as lions may seem, they ultimately just take external nature around them for granted, whereas, mankind progressively masters nature.

The process whereby mankind masters nature is labour. At Marx's grave, Engels stated that his friend's great discovery was that “mankind must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing, and therefore work before it can pursue politics, science, art, religion etc.”

While we can't read the minds of our primitive human ancestors, we can make a pretty good guess about what they were thinking most of the time - food. The struggle against want has dominated history ever since.

Marxists are often accused of being 'economic determinists'. Actually, Marxists are far from denying the importance of ideas or the active role of individuals in history. But precisely because we are active, we understand the limits of individual activity, and the fact that the appropriate social conditions must exist before our ideas and our activity can be effective.

Our academic opponents are generally passive cynics who exalt individual activity amid the port and walnuts from over-stuffed armchairs. We understand, with Marx that people “make their own history...but under circumstances directly encountered, given and transmitted from the past”. We need to understand how society is developing in order to intervene in the process. That is what we mean when we say Marxism is the science of perspectives.

We have seen that labour distinguishes mankind from the other animals - that mankind progressively changes nature through labour, and in doing so changes itself. It follows that there is a real measure of progress through all the miseries and pitfalls of human history - the increasing ability of men and women to master nature and subjugate it to their own requirements: in other words, the increasing productivity of labour.

To each stage in the development of the productive forces corresponds a certain set of production relations. Production relation means the way people organise themselves to gain their daily bread. Production relations are thus the skeleton of every form of society. They provide the conditions of social existence that determine human consciousness.

Marx explained how the development of the productive forces brings into existence different production relations, and different forms of class society.

By a 'class' we mean a group of people in society with the same relationship to the means of production. The class which owns and controls the means of production rules society. This, at the same time, enables it to force the oppressed or labouring class to toil in the rulers' interests. The labouring class is forced to produce a surplus which the ruling class lives off.

Marx explained:

“The specific economic form in which unpaid surplus-labour is pumped out of the direct producers determines the relationship of rulers and ruled, as it grows directly out of production itself and, in turn, reacts upon it as a determining element. Upon this, however, is founded the entire formation of the economic community which grows up out of the production relations themselves; thereby simultaneously its specific political form. It is always the direct relationship of the owners of the conditions of production to the direct producers-a relation always naturally corresponding to a definite stage in the development of the methods of labour and thereby its social productivity-which reveals the innermost secret, the hidden basis of the entire social structure, and with it the political form of the relation of sovereignty and dependence, in short the corresponding specific form of the state.” (Capital, Vol. III.)​

Primitive Communism
In the earliest stages of society people did not go into factories, work to produce things they would not normally consume, and be 'rewarded' at the end of the week with pieces of coloured paper or decorated discs which other people would be quite prepared to accept in exchange for the food, clothing, etc., which they needed. Such behaviour would have struck our remote ancestors as quite fantastic.

Nor did many of the other features of modern society we so much take for granted exist. What socialist has not heard the argument “People are bound to be greedy and grabbing. You can't get socialism because you can't change human nature?” In fact, society divided into classes has existed for no more than about 10,000 years-one hundredth of the time mankind has been on this planet. For the other 99% of the time there was no class society, that is, no enforced inequalities, no state, and no family in the modern sense.

This was not because primitive people were unaccountably more noble than us, but because production relations produced a different sort of society, and so a different 'human nature'. Being determines consciousness, and if people's social being changes - if the society they live under changes - then their consciousness will also change.

The basis of primitive society was gathering and hunting. The only division of labour was that between men and women for the entirely natural biological reason that women were burdened much of the time with young children. They gathered vegetable foods while the men hunted.

Thus each sex played an important part in production. On the basis of studying tribes such as the !Kung in the Kalahari desert, who still live under primitive communist conditions, it has been estimated that the female contribution to the food supply may well have been more important than the male's. Women were held in high esteem in such societies. They contributed at least equally to the wealth of the tribe. They developed separate skills - it seems women invented pottery and even made the crucial breakthrough to agriculture

All these tribal societies had features in common. The hunting grounds were regarded as the common property of the tribe. How could they be anything else when hunting itself is a collective activity? The very insecurity of existence leads to sharing. It's no good hiding a dead hippo from your mates--you won't be able to eat it before it rots anyway, and there may well come a time when other tribe members have a superfluity while you're in distress. It's common sense to share and share alike.

Private property did exist in personal implements, but in the most different tribal societies there existed similar rules to burn or bury these with the body of the owner, in order to prevent the accumulation of inequality.

No such institution as the state was necessary, for there were no fundamental antagonistic class interests tearing society apart. Individual disputes could be sorted out within the tribe. Old men with experience certainly played leading parts in the decision-making of the tribe. They were chiefs, however, and not kings--their authority was deserved or it did not exist. As late as the third century AD (when it was ceasing to be true) Athanaric, leader of the German tribe, the Visigoths, said: “I have authority, not power”.

Society developed because it had to. Beginning in tropical Africa, as population grew to cover more inhospitable parts of the globe, people had to use their power of thought and labour to develop - or die. From gathering fruit, nuts, etc., it was a step forward to cultivating the land - actually ensuring that vegetable food was to hand. From hunting it was a step to husbandry, penning in the animals. Tribal society remained the norm.
 

TLR Is Mental Poison

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OK, I'm really not trying to be a dikk with these two questions....

But 1, why should we have to essentially take a course in socialism to be able to discuss it? Is it really that complicated of a system to understand?

And 2, why does socialism in 2016 have to anchor around Marx's 19th century philosophy and context? The world has changed a lot since then.... shouldn't socialism have to adapt with it to be effective?
 

JahFocus CS

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OK, I'm really not trying to be a dikk with these two questions....

But 1, why should we have to essentially take a course in socialism to be able to discuss it? Is it really that complicated of a system to understand?

And 2, why does socialism in 2016 have to anchor around Marx's 19th century philosophy and context? The world has changed a lot since then.... shouldn't socialism have to adapt with it to be effective?

1. Anyone can discuss socialism, the difference is between discussing it in an informed or uninformed way. 90+% of discussions are the latter. Why? Most people aren't really informed about socialism because: a) it is not in the interests of the ruling class, hence it is not truthfully explored in the media, its history taught in schools, or significantly represented politically (there is a long history of redbaiting, state terrorism and political repression against the Left [Palmer Raids, COINTELPRO, etc. - and that's just in the U.S. and not mentioning the mass murder of leftists in places like Indonesia], etc.) and b) pop culture has distilled it down to a simplistic, misleading caricature.

Most discussions people have about socialism are not at all unlike a fundamentalist Christian from the Bible Belt discussing and trying to debunk evolution. Sure, anyone can discuss evolution, but can they do it in an informed way? If they think evolution means "man evolved from monkeys" and "debunks" it by saying, "there are still monkeys, so evolution is false," where can you even begin to have an informed discussion with them? They don't understand the bases of evolutionary theory, the mechanisms of evolution, and how our understanding of evolution has changed and developed over time. And if they continue to misunderstand or misrepresent the foundations of evolutionary theory, how can we discuss the logical conclusions that are drawn from the foundational ideas?

2. Socialists should be scientific in their approach to studying the conditions and experiences of the working class. Socialist approaches to theory, organization, and revolution should adapt to the circumstances of the time. Some of Marx's reform proposals are irrelevant in 2016, and have been for a long time. However, the key features of capitalism have not changed: wage labor still predominates, hence the exploitation of labor continues apace; production continues to be a social process, but one in which decisions are not democratically decided and the proceeds of labor are privately controlled. Sure, technology has changed, but those fundamental elements of capitalism have not. What central insights into class structure and the exploitation of labor do you believe have fundamentally changed?

Forthcoming posts will cover what is meant by "class" and what is meant by "exploitation."
 

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You can be a socialist and not be a Communist. Most people don't understand this. You can even disagree with Marx or find Marx's ideas not all relative to today's world.

You can be a libertarian socialist. Here in America we think those are opposite terms but they are not in the realm of political philosophy. You can also be a socialist that advocates the state have power.

Lots of interesting places on the spectrum if you approach it with an open mind.
 

Dr. Acula

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Just a suggestion. Not trolling and not trying to be a dikk.

I think to make this more accessible, if that is the goal and I assume that is goal since you feel like there is misunderstanding by individuals on this board and their understanding of socialism, I think maybe starting with an overview of what socialism is in maybe a few paragraphs at most would be a good start and then move on to more nuanced and in-depth philosophical and political theory from there. I think that approach would appeal to a wider variety of individuals instead of link and information dumping because to be honest, not many people are going to watch multiple long videos in order to participate in a discussion. It's not worth it. Its not about deciding to be uneducated, as the way the information is being presented and expected to be digested is a bit much for the average poster here who is probably posting from a more casual standpoint and in spurts and as a result simply doesn't have the time to go through all the information. I think if you took this approach you would get more diverse participation in the discussion instead of just the few of you discussing and sharing information among yourselves.

I'll say this, you and the few others are obviously much more invested in this topic than some here and probably have been for a long time so your depth of knowledge about ALL the in's and outs about the topic is much more vast than the average user. What I saw in the Official Socialism thread though, which its more understandable as I don't think you had the same goal as here, is that the few individuals on this board along with maybe a few occasional others were the only ones in the thread discussing the topic and then outside of that thread for example in the "What make socialism bad" thread you guys were turning your nose up because either not everyone has the same understanding of socialism as you do or you felt they were misinformed. Instead of informing, you guys decided to play the wow you guys are so uneducated card instead of taking the time to correct misconceptions.

I only say this because in your OP, you state your frustration with misconceptions about what socialism is but at the same time it seems hard to get a straight forward answer about what you individually believe socialism to be or what you favor or where you stand.
 

JahFocus CS

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You can be a socialist and not be a Communist. Most people don't understand this. You can even disagree with Marx or find Marx's ideas not all relative to today's world.

You can be a libertarian socialist. Here in America we think those are opposite terms but they are not in the realm of political philosophy. You can also be a socialist that advocates the state have power.

Lots of interesting places on the spectrum if you approach it with an open mind.

Right. I identify as a Libertarian Marxist these days. I have sympathies with anarcho-syndicalism and council communism in particular.

What do you perceive the be the difference between socialists and communists :jbhmm:? I personally do not accept one. Of course we can say communism is a stateless, classless society, and socialism is a society in which the working class exercises control over the means of production. I think all socialists should aspire for humanity to reach communism at some point in the (distant) future. To me, that is what makes one a communist. I do not get too caught up in the labels though, as long as the focus is on the emancipation of the working class
1j2u8.jpg
 

BaggerofTea

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OK, I'm really not trying to be a dikk with these two questions....

But 1, why should we have to essentially take a course in socialism to be able to discuss it? Is it really that complicated of a system to understand?

And 2, why does socialism in 2016 have to anchor around Marx's 19th century philosophy and context? The world has changed a lot since then.... shouldn't socialism have to adapt with it to be effective?


Like any political theory, you should probably be well versed in its depth before discussing it

Socialism has been a constant, I would argue its the world that has finally adopted around it properly
 

JahFocus CS

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Just a suggestion. Not trolling and not trying to be a dikk.

I think to make this more accessible, if that is the goal and I assume that is goal since you feel like there is misunderstanding by individuals on this board and their understanding of socialism, I think maybe starting with an overview of what socialism is in maybe a few paragraphs at most would be a good start and then move on to more nuanced and in-depth philosophical and political theory from there. I think that approach would appeal to a wider variety of individuals instead of link and information dumping because to be honest, not many people are going to watch multiple long videos in order to participate in a discussion. It's not worth it. Its not about deciding to be uneducated, as the way the information is being presented and expected to be digested is a bit much for the average poster here who is probably posting from a more casual standpoint and in spurts and as a result simply doesn't have the time to go through all the information. I think if you took this approach you would get more diverse participation in the discussion instead of just the few of you discussing and sharing information among yourselves.

I'll say this, you and the few others are obviously much more invested in this topic than some here and probably have been for a long time so your depth of knowledge about ALL the in's and outs about the topic is much more vast than the average user. What I saw in the Official Socialism thread though, which its more understandable as I don't think you had the same goal as here, is that the few individuals on this board along with maybe a few occasional others were the only ones in the thread discussing the topic and then outside of that thread for example in the "What make socialism bad" thread you guys were turning your nose up because either not everyone has the same understanding of socialism as you do or you felt they were misinformed. Instead of informing, you guys decided to play the wow you guys are so uneducated card instead of taking the time to correct misconceptions.

I only say this because in your OP, you state your frustration with misconceptions about what socialism is but at the same time it seems hard to get a straight forward answer about what you individually believe socialism to be or what you favor or where you stand.

The thing is though, I've been having the same debates over and over, ad nauseum, with the same cast of characters for over a year now. Those pitched debates get really tired after a while because folks are misrepresenting the arguments. So this thread is to deal with foundational concepts.

I don't really want this thread to get into in-depth philosophical and political theory. That's more advanced stuff that can be explored elsewhere. I think I have, on several occasions, attempted to provide an overview of socialism. But I don't think that's terribly useful, because it is starting with the conclusions instead of the observations and analysis of history and social conditions. That's more so what I want the thread to get at, and that's what I meant about the foundation. Let's add up the facts and subtract the misinformation before getting into what a society structured differently would look like and how to achieve it.

Also, most of the guys who consistently bash socialism on this board do not actually understand what is being argued. I know that because they act surprised when a distinction is drawn between personal property and private property, for example. That is foundational in Marxist theory, and anyone who is informed about it would know how private property is defined.

I hope this post made sense in terms of what direction I'd like this to go in. Thank you for your post breh.
 
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