What's up with the X-Men tho?

Why the dip in popularity?

  • Recyclying too many past storylines

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Fox Movie Rights/Inhumans Push

    Votes: 15 55.6%
  • Too much Wolverine

    Votes: 9 33.3%
  • Core characters are stale/stagnant

    Votes: 9 33.3%
  • Villains are all dead/reformed/uninteresting

    Votes: 5 18.5%
  • Novelty wore off

    Votes: 3 11.1%

  • Total voters
    27

Primetime

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aka @OrangeSodaStyle dropped gems weeks ago in that Storm thread :ehh: and this article expanded on a number of those in this post-Claremont X-Men world.




https://www.cbr.com/marvel-xmen-sales-analysis-theory/
Can Marvel’s X-Men Comics Ever Regain Their Sales Dominance?


Since the new millennium the X-books have seen a continual drop in sales, and a line that seemed almost untouchable in the ’80s and ’90s has become well acquainted with cancellations, countless relaunches and continual changes in direction.
The launch of New Avengers in 2004 seemed to show the Avengers replacing the X-Men as Marvel’s premiere franchise, and the intervening years have seen the mutant-driven line decrease further in both sales and fan attention.

In the May 2018 sales charts, the highest ranking X-book is X-Men: The Wedding Special in 19th place, followed by various Hunt for Wolverine specials. Of the core X-titles, the new X-Men Red series appears first in 31st place, followed by X-Men Gold in 50th place, Astonishing X-Men in 52nd, and X-Men Blue in 61st.

Suddenly, the ’90s seem a very long time away.

So what exactly has happened? Is there any one factor that’s contributed to the X-titles’ decline or is it simply a fact of life that nothing can stay on top forever? In fairness it should be noted that their one time sales chart nemesis, Spawn, has also left the glory days behind, with the latest issue at 44th place.

It’s undeniable that something has changed. In recent years, the X-line has reinvented itself on multiple occasions, both with titles, characters and creators, and with the recently announced cancellation of X-Men Gold and X-Men Blue, looks set to do the same again. But why is this, and are such changes part of the problem or part of the solution?

When considering the performance of the comics, the influence of the movies is an obvious place to start. The release of the first X-Men movie coincided with Chris Claremont’s first return to the X-titles, and eventually brought about his abrupt departure. Hoping to reel in a new generation of fans who were intrigued by the movie, Marvel executives were dismayed to find the core X-titles engaged in a convoluted story-line that featured barely any recognizable characters from the movie.

Could better synergy between comics and movies have led to increased comic sales? The relative under-performance of Fox’s X-films in comparison to Marvel’s films may suggest a reduced sales bumps for the comics themselves, but it’s worth noting that even the most successful Marvel film has yet to conclusively show a sustained increase in comic sales.

Could reader fatigue have played a part in declining sales? Did readers simply grow tired of the X-soap opera, the convoluted family trees and the melodrama, and seek out new characters and titles to enjoy? It’s an interesting question, and one without a definitive answer. The soap opera aspect of the X-books can be confusing to the uninitiated, but these relationships also continue to exert a powerful pull on many readers. Gambit and Rogue’s relationship may have proved divisive over the years, but Marvel is obviously confident enough of its attraction to make it the subject of its new X-series, Mr and Mrs X.

Is the fact therefore that Marvel simply does not have the confidence in the X-line that it once did? Fandom does love a good conspiracy theory, and a popular one in recent years holds that Marvel purposefully sidelined the X-books in favor of the Inhumans, due to Fox holding the film rights for the mutant corner of the Marvel universe. But while it’s highly unlikely that Marvel would intentionally take any action that would harm their profits, a bevy of new titles featuring the Inhumans and the Inhumans vs X-Men miniseries only as served as further evidence to many fans.

A more likely reason is that the X-line is no longer the byword for innovation that it once was. A recurring problem in recent years is that many of the X-books have seemed uncertain whether to embrace change or merely recycle their greatest hits. No matter how enjoyable they may be, it’s often hard to make such interpretations feel organic and many of these storylines, whether the romance between Kitty Pryde and Colossus or the New Mutants reforming at regular intervals, have seemed rather forced, constantly pushing characters into predetermined roles.

Even the transportation of the original five X-Men to the present day – an interesting idea that has been extended long beyond its shelf-life – was made less effective by the fact that the books were already awash with alternate versions of popular heroes.

A more serious complaint is the X-Men’s rogues gallery, which has suffered greatly since their ’90s heyday. Many of the most popular X-villains have been killed off, reformed or been taken off the table, meaning that the books often fall into the holding pattern of seeing heroes fight yet another racist group or soon to be forgotten evolutionary advancement. The most depressing thing about the comics of the last half-decade is that the X-Men have spent as much time fighting among themselves as they have fighting bad guys, with the sniping and bad feeling increasingly tiresome to read month after month.

While many talented creators have worked on the X-books since the end of the ’90s, its clear that with a few exceptions such as Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon, the X-books are no longer an automatic destination for the biggest name in comics. Do fans follow titles/characters, or do they follow creators? Once the power of the X-Men brand meant that the identity of the writer or artist was perhaps of less importance. Now, in an increasingly crowded comics’ field where prices are constantly rising, this may be another barrier in the titles obtaining attention. And in fairness to the creators, the unforgiving nature of the modern comics market means that they are rarely given the opportunity to have a sustained run on a title, thereby establishing a legacy.

So what does the future have in store for the X-line? The cancellation of both X-Men Gold and X-Men Blue strongly suggests that the time-displaced X-Men will finally be exiting the books and that a new X-title will be launched in their place – perhaps the inevitable return of Uncanny X-men? Such a move would be welcomed by some, but would be no guarantee of success. The high turnover of core X-tiles in the past decade, including Uncanny X-Men (twice), Wolverine and the X-Men, All New X-Men (twice), X-Men Blue and X-Men Gold has created the impression of a disjointed line where changes are only cosmetic, as evidenced by the increasingly short sales bump that each relaunch brings.

The X-books have too many good characters and too much popular recognition to rule out a return to the top of the sales charts, but the days when this could be taken for granted are a distant memory.

I've spoken a few times about how i felt the x-franchise mainstream popularity is a bit overstated, especially box office-wise, but i figured the comics hadn't waivered much (i read comics, just not x-men comics). So I found this article and the knowledge orange dropped to be eye-opening.

  • Biggest reasons you think they've taken a dip these last 20 years?
  • Even the well reviewed team movies don't do that great (i.e. First Class), is it just the characters and premise that's gotten stale?
  • Have the quality of the books improved recently and its something else going on?
  • What steps should be taken, if any, for improvement? (comics or movies) And i don't mean change of management like Fox/Disney/Comcast, I mean what would you like to see the franchise do different or focus on character/story wise?
 

Rhapture

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Movies don't do well because they don't stick close enough to the source material. They misinterpreted many of the characters and need a bigger budget. Comics are bad now because of the Writers. the franchise hasn't been the same after house of M
 
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aka @OrangeSodaStyle dropped gems weeks ago in that Storm thread :ehh: and this article expanded on a number of those in this post-Claremont X-Men world.




Can Marvel's X-Men Comics Ever Regain Their Sales Dominance?


I've spoken a few times about how i felt the x-franchise mainstream popularity is a bit overstated, especially box office-wise, but i figured the comics hadn't waivered much (i read comics, just not x-men comics). So I found this article and the knowledge orange dropped to be eye-opening.

  • Biggest reasons you think they've taken a dip these last 20 years?
  • Even the well reviewed team movies don't do that great (i.e. First Class), is it just the characters and premise that's gotten stale?
  • Have the quality of the books improved recently and its something else going on?
  • What steps should be taken, if any, for improvement? (comics or movies) And i don't mean change of management like Fox/Disney/Comcast, I mean what would you like to see the franchise do different or focus on character/story wise?

Appreciate the love, breh :to:

I think all of those reasons you listed are on point, especially the lack of villains.
* Another big reason that isn't mentioned in the article is that there are so many linewide crossovers, reboots and events today that the writers really never get a chance to let stories cook (:cook:) the way they used to.
Think of how crazy the original Phoenix story was because Claremont and Byrne let things cook. Or that original Frank Miller run on Daredevil with Elektra.
To be fair, I mostly read from the OG era of the silver and bronze ages (the 60s through 80s) so I can only judge so harshly.
I'm sure there are still dope current stories out there that are hidden among all the garbage :trash: (I'm always taking suggestions on what to read.)



* One more elephant is the room is the Direct Market. Comic shops are cool, but they also need to reach out to the general public and not just nerds like me. They need to start selling some of their comics in supermarkets and 7-11's, as well as other places that regular people frequently visit. There has to be an appeal to both the newcomers and the longtime fans.
A lot of writers today are either too up in their politics, or trying too hard to be Watchmen. More cats need to take it back to writing for general audiences.

* Finally, there's the issue of too many wack characters. Even though I've given Bishop and Gambit flak for being overrated in the past, they still have their dope moments and are far more interesting than these new-millennium garbage characters they're coming up with today. I look at some of these new characters today and literally make the :dahell: face.

If they want to get the franchise poppin again, they need to go back to basics. Bring back Cyclops and Prof. X. Stop killing and resurrecting people all the time. Get consistent, non-fanboy (or fangirl) writers who aren't too up in their politics. Stop rebooting and having HUGE linewide events every 6 months. Let stories cook.

Make the X-men a unified team again like they were in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Have them actually protect innocent people (both humans AND mutants). Have the characters act like actual heroes and pit them against REAL villains like Magneto, Juggernaut, Apocalypse, and Mr. Sinister.
 
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Primetime

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Appreciate the love, breh :to:

I think all of those reasons you listed are on point, especially the lack of villains.
* Another big reason that isn't mentioned in the article is that there are so many linewide crossovers, reboots and events today that the writers really never get a chance to let stories cook (:cook:) the way they used to.
Think of how crazy the original Phoenix story was because Claremont and Byrne let things cook. Or that original Frank Miller run on Daredevil with Elektra.
To be fair, I mostly read from the OG era of the silver and bronze ages (the 60s through 80s) so I can only judge so harshly.
I'm sure there are still dope current stories out there that are hidden among all the garbage :trash: (I'm always taking suggestions on what to read.)



* One more elephant is the room is the Direct Market. Comic shops are cool, but they also need to reach out to the general public and not just nerds like me. They need to start selling some of their comics in supermarkets and 7-11's, as well as other places that regular people frequently visit. There has to be an appeal to both the newcomers and the longtime fans.
A lot of writers today are either too up in their politics, or trying too hard to be Watchmen. More cats need to take it back to writing for general audiences.

* Finally, there's the issue of too many wack characters. Even though I've given Bishop and Gambit flak for being overrated in the past, they still have their dope moments and are far more interesting than these new-millennium garbage characters they're coming up with today. I look at some of these new characters today and literally make the :dahell: face.

If they want to get the franchise poppin again, they need to go back to basics. Bring back Cyclops and Prof. X. Stop killing and resurrecting people all the time. Get consistent, non-fanboy (or fangirl) writers who aren't too up in their politics. Stop rebooting and having HUGE linewide events every 6 months. Let stories cook.

Make the X-men a unified team again like they were in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Have them actually protect innocent people (both humans AND mutants). Have the characters act like actual heroes and pit them against REAL villains like Magneto, Juggernaut, Apocalypse, and Mr. Sinister.


:salute:

And facts @ not letting these stories cook. There was probably one x-men storyline that hooked me and that was maybe a decade ago during the whole Hope Summers / Cable / Bishop / Messiah Complex stuff... in part because the Cable / Hope / Bishop cat and mouse game went on for a minute. But the story ended up pissing me off because they basically made this huge hoopla about Hope, and made Bishop borderline irredeemable, only to have zero pay off in the Hope character and zero justification for why Bishop was so hell bent on killing her. Instead she got swallowed into another cringe-worthy company event (AvX) where her final purpose was some rudderless contribution alongside Scarlet Witch that got overshadowed by Cyke/Xavier,

Hope, Wanda, and AvX were like 2 birds and 1 stone to tie-up 2 redemption storylines that Marvel never had any plans for how to wrap up. YA:Children's Crusade (or whatever it was called) went on for waaay too long due to delays and wasn't satisfying, and it felt like they were just pump faking on whether Hope would somehow lead to Jean Grey returning. And i want to say that shortly after this led to x-men schism with this senseless wolverine x cyclops beef
 

Primetime

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Also, agreed that they really haven't done a good job cultivating a lot of these new characters.

Hell, feels like Jubilee never amounted to anything. I mean, they had her stuck as a vampire for like the last 8 years :pachaha:

"Gentle" the non-aggressive Wakandan super strong mutant who doesn't want to hurt anybody... whatever. They all but ignored him up until this recent x-men red relaunch.

Hope Summers, after they curved her to the side, tasked her with her own team to.. find mutants or something, but clearly that book, if it was a book, long since got canned and i don't know who or what happened to the cast.
 

R=G

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The films. The movies was when Marvel stopped marketing them and went pro Avengers. 2004 was when New Avengers with Bendis started..he put Spider Man and Wolverine on the team and the year before Grant Morrison killed Jean Grey and tried to kill off Magneto. Claremont and the editors canceled that part and brought Magneto back like 5 months later. Ever since Marvel got sold those film rights to Fox...they turned on the X franchise and marketed everything behind the Avengers and it worked thanks to Downey Jr knocking it out of the park in 2008.

Theyve given the x franchise the lower end creators..dont push them during events post House of M and pretty much put a bore like Cyclops in the top spot for the entire Avengers push and the x franchise hasnt been the same since. The Fraction run in 09 was terrible. They kicked all the x women out to push Emma Frost as Cyclops partner in crime and depushed the usual story moving Magneto to be behind Cyclops. Add on the Xavier death, scapegoating Wanda to maximize the Avengers growth, and it's been all different ever since.
 

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Observation:

when I saw this thread earlier I tried to think on why I like the x-men and what was cool about them before I answered. With that said, i would love for x-men to go back to its more gritty roots.

I think of xmen as a world like the watchmen. Sentinels roaming, mutahts being hunted down. There used to be real stakes in xmen. Whioe dark knighy returns and watchmen were doing their thing, i thought stories like mutant massacre, inferno, days of future past, pheonix had really great stories. Somewhere in the mid 90s it lost that but morrisons new xmen brought that back.

I stopped reading xmen soon after that. I liked astonishing but it was more classic 70s adventure xmen to me. Since ... nothing has peaked my intrest.

I think the moviws being bad, not matching the books and the books relying on chqracters noone cares bout is the reason.

I do not want these new characters they have been making since mid 90s.

Imo they have the best rogues gallery so theres nonexcuse. Use the best 50 characters and keepnout the people noone cqres about.

I mean you got the best of the best. Focus on what works. Forget the rest.
 
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Batsute

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They ruined Cyclops, he's dikk but he was a idealistic dikk then they kill em off. Xkids were dumb as shyt, iceman now gay, and all the stupid ass heel turns turned me off to X-Men.

People wanna use mutants as a metaphor for the oppressed, but that shyt don't work anymore since 99% of society now fights for the oppressed. If anything they need to go the route having their identity co opted by humans who become culture vultures of mutants.
 

AquaCityBoy

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The big reason I could never get into X-Men is the main reason I have trouble getting into Marvel as a whole: too many books to keep up with.

I can't keep up with all these X-Men titles that are all the different Power Ranger colors. :francis:
 

Primetime

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Observation:

when I saw this thread earlier I tried to think on why I like the x-men and what was cool about them before I answered. With that said, i would love for x-men to go back to its more gritty roots.

I think of xmen as a world like the watchmen. Sentinels roaming, mutahts being hunted down. There used to be real stakes in xmen. Whioe dark knighy returns and watchmen were doing their thing, i thought stories like mutant massacre, inferno, days of future past, pheonix had really great stories. Somewhere in the mid 90s it lost that but morrisons new xmen brought that back.

I stopped reading xmen soon after that. I liked astonishing but it was more classic 70s adventure xmen to me. Since ... nothing has peaked my intrest.

I think the moviws being bad, not matching the books and the books relying on chqracters noone cares bout is the reason.

I do not want these new characters they have been making since mid 90s.

Imo they have the best rogues gallery so theres nonexcuse. Use the best 50 characters and keepnout the people noone cqres about.

I mean you got the best of the best. Focus on what works. Forget the rest.

Lowkey/highkey, this was when i was most interested in the x-men, when they played that card. At this point tho, i think they either gotta find a new creative way to have those stakes or just plain move in a different direction with "mutants". Having hordes of sentinels and hate groups roaming around massacring mutants out of "fear" but every other super-powered person indistinguishable from a mutant is pretty much just chillin, or is a full blown celebrity adored by the public... the lack of symmetry definitely makes it feel like 2 different worlds
 

Primetime

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They ruined Cyclops, he's dikk but he was a idealistic dikk then they kill em off. Xkids were dumb as shyt, iceman now gay, and all the stupid ass heel turns turned me off to X-Men.

People wanna use mutants as a metaphor for the oppressed, but that shyt don't work anymore since 99% of society now fights for the oppressed. If anything they need to go the route having their identity co opted by humans who become culture vultures of mutants.

It was always ironic how they wanted this to be the case, yet the core cast of x-men were all white people. The main x-men pushed in the movies are all white people, and the Malcolm X and Martin Luther King of mutants was a jewish white guy and a privileged white guy from a filthy rich ny family. lol

So yea, in 2018 what's the point of these oppressed white people representing the struggle for black and brown people, when there are now black and brown characters enabled to directly address the struggle in much more culturally rich ways? Between Luke Cage, Black Lightning, Black Panther, and even Cloak and Dagger, you're pretty much good to go in that regard.
 

R=G

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It was always ironic how they wanted this to be the case, yet the core cast of x-men were all white people. The main x-men pushed in the movies are all white people, and the Malcolm X and Martin Luther King of mutants was a jewish white guy and a privileged white guy from a filthy rich ny family. lol

So yea, in 2018 what's the point of these oppressed white people representing the struggle for black and brown people, when there are now black and brown characters enabled to directly address the struggle in much more culturally rich ways? Between Luke Cage, Black Lightning, Black Panther, and even Cloak and Dagger, you're pretty much good to go in that regard.
When the fukk has Luke Cage, Cloak, and Black Lightning ever appealed to the plight of Blacks? Lol. Wtf.
 

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