Why the rings argument dont work for Bill Russell

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Lets get schtraight to it, no vasoline




A ROBBERY occurs:


The 1956–57 NBA season was the St. Louis Hawks' 11th season in the NBA. Prior to the start of the season, the Hawks made one of the biggest draft-day deals in NBA history. The Hawks sent 2nd overall pick Bill Russell to the Boston Celtics for Cliff Hagan and second-year star Ed Macauley

hwk_hagan_classic_hs.jpg

Cliff

220px-Ed_Macauley_1953.jpeg

Ed

Good lord, what a fukking steallll. Makes Jerry West look like 2015 Mitch Kupchak in retrospect.



Now let me explain how WEAK AND TRASH THE NBA WAS during Bills time period.

The NBA officially became the NBA in 1949-50 began with 17 teams. Which then turned to 8 teams in 1953-54

In that time span, the George Mikan led lakers, yes thats right George Mikan, led Lakers, won 5 championships In 49, 50, 52, 53, 54


175px-GeorgeMikan.jpg


(Look at the vert on that one, and look at all those PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYERS FROM that era)


Good to note:

In 55-56 Boston finished with the second best record in the NBA behind philadelphia.

In 56-57 Boston added Russell to a core that had Season MVP Bob Cousey and Rookie of the Year Tommy Heinsohn.



Interesting Facts said:
Now Bill Russell is a CENTER, with a worse career FG% than Kobe Bean Bryant. Yes that is correct, go fact check that shyt.

While shooting barely 4 percentage points higher than Shaq from the freethrow!

Bill Russell averaged 15 ppg and 22 rpg for his career from 1956-69

In that time span:

Maurice stokes, who only played for 3 yeara averaged 15 ppg and 17 from 1955-57

Bob Petit averaged 26 and 16 for his career, played from 1954-65

From 1958-62 Elgin Baylor averaged 32 and 17 and finished his career averaging 27 and 13.

From 1959-69 Wilt Chamberlain averaged 35 and 24, (30 and 23 for his career)


Notice a trend?

The top 50 Rebounding games come from 1957-1967 seasons. Its Wilt and Bill back and forth with a spec of Neil Johnston somewhere in there.


Neil averaged 22 and 15 in 54 btw.


:russell::russell::russell:
TL:DR it was an old ass time in which cacs like Bob Cousy and George Mikan were stars and MVP’s, the second best team got the 2nd overall pick and there were only 8 teams back then.

Celtics won Title first year with Russell, in a season where Bob Cousy won MVP.


They also got to pick the eventual rookie of the year tom heinsohn with ther “territorial pick” in the Bill Russell draft. Which was THE FIRST PICK, but not officially since it was a “hometown hero”


NBA territorial pick - Wikipedia
:russell::russell::russell:




Dont get me started on ROLEPLAYER HORRY
 

Noah

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So your focus is on era and the warped statistics as a result of the relative novelty of the game (and tangentially, the lack of diversity making for decidedly stiffer league) which is reasonable. In particular, scoring and rebounding numbers are inflated while efficiency (more possessions = more shots = more bad shots) and assists (defined more strictly vs. now) are going to be deflated. What doesn't make a lot of sense to me is criticizing Russell and his achievements because he played in said era. What critique is it on Russell that Red made the trade that he did to get him?

Comparing someone doing something decades ago to someone doing something today is going to make for an unfair comparison. Without taking into account Russell's actual playstyle and what made him so revered in the first place is to ignore a huge portion of what this is about: contesting Russell's greatness. Nothing wrong with it, but there are better points to raise. Like his getting outplayed by Chamberlain in the 1967 EDF. Or that the concentration of HOF players on his team (though players like K.C. Jones and Satch Sanders aren't HOF-worthy talent wise...) was higher than basically any other rival's throughout his career (save for Chamberlain's mid-1960s Sixer teams, who were lowkey stacked and led by really great coaching).

Over the course of Russell's career, league average FG% was 42%. Russell's was 44.0%. A little above average. Not great, but his contemporaries (excluding Wilt because he's Wilt) also hover around that 42-44% mark.

Why compare Russell's FG% to Kobe's? Over the course of Kobe's career, league average FG% was 45%. Kobe's career average FG% is 44.7%, so right there. Why hold a mid-20th century player to 21st-century standards? Especially when both are around where they should be in terms of efficiency? When one was asked to do very different things on offense than the other?

Like you said and what should be mentioned, rebounding numbers are inflated. Though in comparison to his peers, Russell was pretty clearly only behind Chamberlain in terms of rebounding the ball. Even with inflated numbers, I'd consider him still comfortably in the top tier of rebounders to ever play (alongside Chamberlain, Rodman, Moses Malone etc.).

What you've neglected to mention is Russell's overall influence on the game.







Glamorous, not really, but he is almost always in motion, moving the ball, and part of the fast breaks (whether running it himself or sparking it with a block/outlet). Not a total liability, no?





Russell's defensive ability and intangibles are probably the most well-known and well-covered aspects of his game, doesn't really need to be gone through in-depth.





Good overviews of what Russell was about, especially in the playoffs. Speaking of playoffs...

Russell in elimination games (17-2 record in elimination games) and other closeout games:

1957 Game 3 EDF vs. Nats: 10 pts, 23 reb, 2/4 FT (other stats not given)

1957 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 19 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 7/17 FG, 5/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1958 Game 5 EDF vs. Warriors: 18 pts, 30 reb, 2 ast, (FG numbers not given)

1958 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 8 pts, 8 reb, 2/7 FG (other stats not given)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1959 Game 7 EDF vs. Nats: 18 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 8/23 FG, 2/2 FT *FOULED OUT

1959 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 15 pts, 30 reb, 0 ast, 5/9 FG, 5/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1960 Game 6 EDF vs. Warriors: 25 pts, 25 reb, 3 ast, 11/26 FG, 3/4 FT

1960 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 22 pts, 35 reb, 4 ast, 7/15 FG, 8/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1961 Game 5 EDF vs. Nats: 25 pts, 33 reb, 3 ast, 11/17 FG, 3/7 FT

1961 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 30 pts, 38 reb, 3 ast, 9/17 FG, 12/17 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1962 Game 7 EDF vs. Warriors: 19 pts, 22 reb, 1 ast, 7/14 FG, 5/5 FT

1962 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 30 pts, 40 reb, 4 ast, 8/18 FG, 14/17 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1963 Game 7 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 8/14 FG, 4/6 FT

1963 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 24 reb, 9 ast, 5/12 FG, 2/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1964 Game 5 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 35 reb, 7 ast, 7/16 FG, 6/7 FT

1964 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Warriors: 14 pts, 26 reb, 6 ast, 5/11 FG, 4/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1965 Game 7 EDF vs. 76ers: 15 pts, 29 reb, 8 ast, 7/16 FG, 1/2 FT

1965 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 22 pts, 30 reb, 4 ast, 6/9 FG, 10/11 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1966 Game 5 First Round vs. Royals: 16 pts, 31 reb, 11 ast, 7/13 FG, 2/6 FT

1966 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 18 pts, 31 reb, 6 ast, 6/11 FG, 6/10 FT

1966 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 25 pts, 32 reb, 1 ast, 10/22 FG, 5/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1967 Game 4 First Round vs. Knicks: 4 pts, 16 reb, 2 ast, 1/6 FG, 2/4 FT *FOULED OUT

1967 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 4 pts, 21 reb, 7 ast, 2/5 FG, 0/1 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1968 Game 6 First Round vs. Pistons: 15 pts, 23 reb, 9 ast, 6/18 FG, 3/4 FT

1968 Game 7 ECF vs. 76ers: 12 pts, 26 reb, 5 ast, 4/6 FG, 4/10 FT

1968 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 19 reb, 6 ast, 5/7 FG, 2/2 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1969 Game 5 First Round vs. 76ers: 5 pts, 1/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 6 ECF vs. Knicks: 12 pts, 0/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 6 pts, 21 reb, 6 ast, 2/7 FG, 2/4 FT

Shout out @dantheman9758 for providing YT clips. Great channel worth exploring.
 

T.he I.nformant

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Textbook goalposts move...

Me: “So and so” is the GOAT

You: Nah, not enough rings

Me: Oh, so if it’s just about rings you must have Bill Russell as the GOAT

You: Hell no, his era was weak as hell—barely any teams and full of cacs

Me: So, it’s got to be someone more recent—how about Big Shot Bob aka Robert Horry aka Mr. 7 Rangs

You: Don’t even get me started on that role player

:mindblown:
 

badboys11

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Ive seen a picture of Bill Russell jumping over another player to put somebodys shot against the backboard. All the :flabbynsick: fellas speak highly of him, but Chamberlain was apparently better. They went at it head to head. I wonder how much their timelines cross.
This thread sounds like a lebron fan trying to discredit the rings argument. Ive also heard robert horry brought up in these situations:sadbron:
 
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So your focus is on era and the warped statistics as a result of the relative novelty of the game (and tangentially, the lack of diversity making for decidedly stiffer league) which is reasonable. In particular, scoring and rebounding numbers are inflated while efficiency (more possessions = more shots = more bad shots) and assists (defined more strictly vs. now) are going to be deflated. What doesn't make a lot of sense to me is criticizing Russell and his achievements because he played in said era. What critique is it on Russell that Red made the trade that he did to get him?

Comparing someone doing something decades ago to someone doing something today is going to make for an unfair comparison. Without taking into account Russell's actual playstyle and what made him so revered in the first place is to ignore a huge portion of what this is about: contesting Russell's greatness. Nothing wrong with it, but there are better points to raise. Like his getting outplayed by Chamberlain in the 1967 EDF. Or that the concentration of HOF players on his team (though players like K.C. Jones and Satch Sanders aren't HOF-worthy talent wise...) was higher than basically any other rival's throughout his career (save for Chamberlain's mid-1960s Sixer teams, who were lowkey stacked and led by really great coaching).

Over the course of Russell's career, league average FG% was 42%. Russell's was 44.0%. A little above average. Not great, but his contemporaries (excluding Wilt because he's Wilt) also hover around that 42-44% mark.

Why compare Russell's FG% to Kobe's? Over the course of Kobe's career, league average FG% was 45%. Kobe's career average FG% is 44.7%, so right there. Why hold a mid-20th century player to 21st-century standards? Especially when both are around where they should be in terms of efficiency? When one was asked to do very different things on offense than the other?

Like you said and what should be mentioned, rebounding numbers are inflated. Though in comparison to his peers, Russell was pretty clearly only behind Chamberlain in terms of rebounding the ball. Even with inflated numbers, I'd consider him still comfortably in the top tier of rebounders to ever play (alongside Chamberlain, Rodman, Moses Malone etc.).

What you've neglected to mention is Russell's overall influence on the game.







Glamorous, not really, but he is almost always in motion, moving the ball, and part of the fast breaks (whether running it himself or sparking it with a block/outlet). Not a total liability, no?





Russell's defensive ability and intangibles are probably the most well-known and well-covered aspects of his game, doesn't really need to be gone through in-depth.





Good overviews of what Russell was about, especially in the playoffs. Speaking of playoffs...

Russell in elimination games (17-2 record in elimination games) and other closeout games:

1957 Game 3 EDF vs. Nats: 10 pts, 23 reb, 2/4 FT (other stats not given)

1957 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 19 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 7/17 FG, 5/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1958 Game 5 EDF vs. Warriors: 18 pts, 30 reb, 2 ast, (FG numbers not given)

1958 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 8 pts, 8 reb, 2/7 FG (other stats not given)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1959 Game 7 EDF vs. Nats: 18 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 8/23 FG, 2/2 FT *FOULED OUT

1959 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 15 pts, 30 reb, 0 ast, 5/9 FG, 5/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1960 Game 6 EDF vs. Warriors: 25 pts, 25 reb, 3 ast, 11/26 FG, 3/4 FT

1960 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 22 pts, 35 reb, 4 ast, 7/15 FG, 8/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1961 Game 5 EDF vs. Nats: 25 pts, 33 reb, 3 ast, 11/17 FG, 3/7 FT

1961 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 30 pts, 38 reb, 3 ast, 9/17 FG, 12/17 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1962 Game 7 EDF vs. Warriors: 19 pts, 22 reb, 1 ast, 7/14 FG, 5/5 FT

1962 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 30 pts, 40 reb, 4 ast, 8/18 FG, 14/17 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1963 Game 7 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 8/14 FG, 4/6 FT

1963 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 24 reb, 9 ast, 5/12 FG, 2/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1964 Game 5 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 35 reb, 7 ast, 7/16 FG, 6/7 FT

1964 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Warriors: 14 pts, 26 reb, 6 ast, 5/11 FG, 4/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1965 Game 7 EDF vs. 76ers: 15 pts, 29 reb, 8 ast, 7/16 FG, 1/2 FT

1965 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 22 pts, 30 reb, 4 ast, 6/9 FG, 10/11 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1966 Game 5 First Round vs. Royals: 16 pts, 31 reb, 11 ast, 7/13 FG, 2/6 FT

1966 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 18 pts, 31 reb, 6 ast, 6/11 FG, 6/10 FT

1966 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 25 pts, 32 reb, 1 ast, 10/22 FG, 5/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1967 Game 4 First Round vs. Knicks: 4 pts, 16 reb, 2 ast, 1/6 FG, 2/4 FT *FOULED OUT

1967 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 4 pts, 21 reb, 7 ast, 2/5 FG, 0/1 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1968 Game 6 First Round vs. Pistons: 15 pts, 23 reb, 9 ast, 6/18 FG, 3/4 FT

1968 Game 7 ECF vs. 76ers: 12 pts, 26 reb, 5 ast, 4/6 FG, 4/10 FT

1968 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 19 reb, 6 ast, 5/7 FG, 2/2 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1969 Game 5 First Round vs. 76ers: 5 pts, 1/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 6 ECF vs. Knicks: 12 pts, 0/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 6 pts, 21 reb, 6 ast, 2/7 FG, 2/4 FT

Shout out @dantheman9758 for providing YT clips. Great channel worth exploring.

Quality post breh, I just hope you arent expecting a reasonable response backed by numbers or facts
 

mastermind

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So your focus is on era and the warped statistics as a result of the relative novelty of the game (and tangentially, the lack of diversity making for decidedly stiffer league) which is reasonable. In particular, scoring and rebounding numbers are inflated while efficiency (more possessions = more shots = more bad shots) and assists (defined more strictly vs. now) are going to be deflated. What doesn't make a lot of sense to me is criticizing Russell and his achievements because he played in said era. What critique is it on Russell that Red made the trade that he did to get him?

Comparing someone doing something decades ago to someone doing something today is going to make for an unfair comparison. Without taking into account Russell's actual playstyle and what made him so revered in the first place is to ignore a huge portion of what this is about: contesting Russell's greatness. Nothing wrong with it, but there are better points to raise. Like his getting outplayed by Chamberlain in the 1967 EDF. Or that the concentration of HOF players on his team (though players like K.C. Jones and Satch Sanders aren't HOF-worthy talent wise...) was higher than basically any other rival's throughout his career (save for Chamberlain's mid-1960s Sixer teams, who were lowkey stacked and led by really great coaching).

Over the course of Russell's career, league average FG% was 42%. Russell's was 44.0%. A little above average. Not great, but his contemporaries (excluding Wilt because he's Wilt) also hover around that 42-44% mark.

Why compare Russell's FG% to Kobe's? Over the course of Kobe's career, league average FG% was 45%. Kobe's career average FG% is 44.7%, so right there. Why hold a mid-20th century player to 21st-century standards? Especially when both are around where they should be in terms of efficiency? When one was asked to do very different things on offense than the other?

Like you said and what should be mentioned, rebounding numbers are inflated. Though in comparison to his peers, Russell was pretty clearly only behind Chamberlain in terms of rebounding the ball. Even with inflated numbers, I'd consider him still comfortably in the top tier of rebounders to ever play (alongside Chamberlain, Rodman, Moses Malone etc.).

What you've neglected to mention is Russell's overall influence on the game.







Glamorous, not really, but he is almost always in motion, moving the ball, and part of the fast breaks (whether running it himself or sparking it with a block/outlet). Not a total liability, no?





Russell's defensive ability and intangibles are probably the most well-known and well-covered aspects of his game, doesn't really need to be gone through in-depth.





Good overviews of what Russell was about, especially in the playoffs. Speaking of playoffs...

Russell in elimination games (17-2 record in elimination games) and other closeout games:

1957 Game 3 EDF vs. Nats: 10 pts, 23 reb, 2/4 FT (other stats not given)

1957 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 19 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 7/17 FG, 5/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1958 Game 5 EDF vs. Warriors: 18 pts, 30 reb, 2 ast, (FG numbers not given)

1958 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 8 pts, 8 reb, 2/7 FG (other stats not given)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1959 Game 7 EDF vs. Nats: 18 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 8/23 FG, 2/2 FT *FOULED OUT

1959 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 15 pts, 30 reb, 0 ast, 5/9 FG, 5/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1960 Game 6 EDF vs. Warriors: 25 pts, 25 reb, 3 ast, 11/26 FG, 3/4 FT

1960 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 22 pts, 35 reb, 4 ast, 7/15 FG, 8/10 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1961 Game 5 EDF vs. Nats: 25 pts, 33 reb, 3 ast, 11/17 FG, 3/7 FT

1961 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 30 pts, 38 reb, 3 ast, 9/17 FG, 12/17 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1962 Game 7 EDF vs. Warriors: 19 pts, 22 reb, 1 ast, 7/14 FG, 5/5 FT

1962 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 30 pts, 40 reb, 4 ast, 8/18 FG, 14/17 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1963 Game 7 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 8/14 FG, 4/6 FT

1963 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 24 reb, 9 ast, 5/12 FG, 2/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1964 Game 5 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 35 reb, 7 ast, 7/16 FG, 6/7 FT

1964 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Warriors: 14 pts, 26 reb, 6 ast, 5/11 FG, 4/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1965 Game 7 EDF vs. 76ers: 15 pts, 29 reb, 8 ast, 7/16 FG, 1/2 FT

1965 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 22 pts, 30 reb, 4 ast, 6/9 FG, 10/11 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1966 Game 5 First Round vs. Royals: 16 pts, 31 reb, 11 ast, 7/13 FG, 2/6 FT

1966 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 18 pts, 31 reb, 6 ast, 6/11 FG, 6/10 FT

1966 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 25 pts, 32 reb, 1 ast, 10/22 FG, 5/5 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1967 Game 4 First Round vs. Knicks: 4 pts, 16 reb, 2 ast, 1/6 FG, 2/4 FT *FOULED OUT

1967 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 4 pts, 21 reb, 7 ast, 2/5 FG, 0/1 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1968 Game 6 First Round vs. Pistons: 15 pts, 23 reb, 9 ast, 6/18 FG, 3/4 FT

1968 Game 7 ECF vs. 76ers: 12 pts, 26 reb, 5 ast, 4/6 FG, 4/10 FT

1968 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 19 reb, 6 ast, 5/7 FG, 2/2 FT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1969 Game 5 First Round vs. 76ers: 5 pts, 1/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 6 ECF vs. Knicks: 12 pts, 0/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 6 pts, 21 reb, 6 ast, 2/7 FG, 2/4 FT

Shout out @dantheman9758 for providing YT clips. Great channel worth exploring.

every few months this thread gets made

every few months someone posts facts to shyt on the childish opinion

and every few months posts that are well researched and thoughtout get ignore in order to push those childish opinions.

rinse and repeat

 

JackRoss

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Ive seen a picture of Bill Russell jumping over another player to put somebodys shot against the backboard. All the :flabbynsick: fellas speak highly of him, but Chamberlain was apparently better. They went at it head to head. I wonder how much their timelines cross.
This thread sounds like a lebron fan trying to discredit the rings argument. Ive also heard robert horry brought up in these situations:sadbron:

What if I told you OP is a Kobe stan?
 
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