A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[Black Magisterialness]

I feel like you'll have trouble avoiding news about the show. I mean you go to say the LA Times website a day after the show and BAM there's a headline about what happened. Its pretty much everywhere. Even if you try to avoid spoiling yourself it can still happen accidentally.


She's eeeeaaaaaasily my least favorite major character in the book. But this makes me ask a question. I read GRRM say maybe he should have made Robb a POV character. Does anyone think the story would have been better served with Robb as a POV rather than Cat?

Nah, it made Robb's rise to power more heroic. The fact that we don't know his internal feelings and thoughts. It also made his downfall all the more sudden and tragic...he just come's back with some random thot from the west talking about he LUUUUH her....the collective wtf was more potent that way.

I do think that epi 9 will but the Fighting pits episode and Dany's flight off drogon. If they skip Aegon entirely i could see that. But I do wish to see Barristan and Missandei running Mereen for an epi or two. Barristan said watching her think was like seeing Varys and Littlefinger trapped in a little girls body....

 

[NobodyReally]

it would have been cool to have a robb POV, but as much as i hate catelyn, her POVs were good.

but damn i will never understand her extreme hate for jon. its not like jon had any fault being a b*stard. he was just a baby and the bytch treated him like shyt his whole life.

This is really my only reason for hating Cat. I love Jon, and her treatment of him (while actually somewhat human considering where she thought he came from) was distasteful. Like you said, he was a innocent and she was a complete a$$hole to him. And any character who goes against Jon is automatically on my shyt list.

 

[beanz]

This is really my only reason for hating Cat. I love Jon, and her treatment of him (while actually somewhat human considering where she thought he came from) was distasteful. Like you said, he was a innocent and she was a complete a$$hole to him. And any character who goes against Jon is automatically on my shyt list.

im a big jon fan too but even during my first time watching GoT on hbo before i even knew who was who she had me pissed. when he went into the bedroom to say bye to bran and she acted like he was the one that pushed him. ever since then she been on my shytlist. the only time i liked her a little was when she started hanging freys and even then i was like fukk this zombie bytch

 

[Devilinurear]

Yeah, her hatred of Jon really pissed me off. Like there was never anything she could do to redeem herself in my eyes after how she treated Jon. When the show had that bit where she mentioned how she prayed for Jon's life when he was sick as a baby I just rolled my eyes, I actually FF through that shyt when I rewatch it. Who you fooling, Cat?

I was kind of surprised she arrested Tyrion like that straight out, because for the most part she's overly cautious unless her children are in danger. And arresting Tyrion could have put Sansa and Arya in KL in serious danger immediately, not to mention her husband who actually did get attacked by Jamie and the gang the moment Jamie found out because of her impulsiveness. Like everyone knows Lannisters don't take kindly to people fukking with them, if there as any time for her to be cautious Cat that was it!

Naw taking Tyrion was a good move if the laniaters did try to kill Bryan. that way they could make an exchange. she fukked up by not holding on to him. in the books she was meaner to Jon on the show it was not too bad I think they did that scene so the audience does not hate her.

 

[dennis roadman]

Cat goes kinda hard tho brehs, given how she was raised. i really like the cat:edmure::cersei:jaime dynamic, the dudes are kinda bumbling fools, to different extents of course, and the women go all out to get theirs, even if they're unsuccessful. Cat was bred to be a good little girl who gets married to a lord and just has babies, but she was a de facto general in a war she may have won if not for teenage lust and an inherited sense of Northern honor, and then she came back from the dead to do some charles bronson shyt. i respect that

her chapters were great cameras into the North camp during the war, and her desperation and anxiety drove much of the story.

 

[NobodyReally]

Cat goes kinda hard tho brehs, given how she was raised. i really like the cat:edmure::cersei:jaime dynamic, the dudes are kinda bumbling fools, to different extents of course, and the women go all out to get theirs, even if they're unsuccessful. Cat was bred to be a good little girl who gets married to a lord and just has babies, but she was a de facto general in a war she may have won if not for teenage lust and an inherited sense of Northern honor, and then she came back from the dead to do some charles bronson shyt. i respect that

her chapters were great cameras into the North camp during the war, and her desperation and anxiety drove much of the story.

It's weird, I agree with everything you're saying. She's an important character, and I do understand why she's the way she is, but I still don't like her. I guess you can respect a character's importance while disliking them.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Cat goes kinda hard tho brehs, given how she was raised. i really like the cat:edmure::cersei:jaime dynamic, the dudes are kinda bumbling fools, to different extents of course, and the women go all out to get theirs, even if they're unsuccessful. Cat was bred to be a good little girl who gets married to a lord and just has babies, but she was a de facto general in a war she may have won if not for teenage lust and an inherited sense of Northern honor, and then she came back from the dead to do some charles bronson shyt. i respect that

her chapters were great cameras into the North camp during the war, and her desperation and anxiety drove much of the story.

She was the de facto general in a war that is one million percent her goddamn fault because she got played like a board piece in Littlefinger's tiny hands

Cat even talked/begged OG Ned into agreeing with the marriage and becoming the Hand. And then of course the fukking dumb ass Tyrion move(s), and letting Jamie go, and goddammit Cat is the fukking worst. Not to mention she's now in the process of trying to debacle Jamie Lannister, Riverlands Sheriff

 

[Cheesy]

I never really hated Cat, untill she let Jaimie go, I still didn't hate her but her stupidity threatened characters I cared about. I felt sad when she died though, but mainly because I already felt bad enough for Arya and Sansa being in their respective shytty situations

I have accepted the fact that there will be spoilers in the show, I'd rather read it first but, so be it, I only read the books after season two anyway.

 

[The Watcher]

Cat goes kinda hard tho brehs, given how she was raised. i really like the cat:edmure::cersei:jaime dynamic, the dudes are kinda bumbling fools, to different extents of course, and the women go all out to get theirs, even if they're unsuccessful. Cat was bred to be a good little girl who gets married to a lord and just has babies, but she was a de facto general in a war she may have won if not for teenage lust and an inherited sense of Northern honor, and then she came back from the dead to do some charles bronson shyt. i respect that

her chapters were great cameras into the North camp during the war, and her desperation and anxiety drove much of the story.

This is exactly why I like those Cat chapters so much and am glad GRRM went that direction rather than Robb POVs.

I know it's not a popular opinion, but seeing the Northern camp from the perspective of a worried mother was really powerful, especially considering that her initial instincts were good - snapping up Tyrion was the right thing to do, she thought he tried to kill Bran and had to know on some level the Lannisters were going to fukk with Ned in some kind of way that forced a Northern response, so grabbbing a hostage early in the process was a bold ass, proactive move imo - it was those "after the fact" instincts that sucked. Once she went to the Vale and lost Tyrion, then went and let the Kingslayer go without any formal "I'll do this and you give me my daughters back" kind of pact that was clear to everyone else, she blew it all up. At least with her POVs I at least understood her logic tho and could sympathize on some level. And that Red Wedding chapter wouldn't have been half as good if it was reversed and I saw it all through Robb's clueless ass instead of Cat's older, more familiar with the dirty Lord Frey's bullshyt, perspective. That build up of tension was amazing and I don't think we would've gotten anything close if it was Robb telling the story.

Then she came back as a pissed off zombie that's fittin to wreck shyt all over the Riverlands in a crazy, post-death revenge spree. Yeah. That works for me.

I do agree she was a horrible bytch to Jon, but I think that's GRRM way of deconstructing the idea of the "wicked step-mother". It's like if we saw the story of Cinderella through her evil step-mom's eyes and found out that she really wasn't such a bad mom, just pissed off that her husband cheated and then made her raise his love seed - the prettier, nicer love seed that was a huge threat to the success of her natural daughters. It may not excuse the actions, but at least there's some perspective.

 

[TheGreatShowtime]

Yeah, her hatred of Jon really pissed me off. Like there was never anything she could do to redeem herself in my eyes after how she treated Jon. When the show had that bit where she mentioned how she prayed for Jon's life when he was sick as a baby I just rolled my eyes, I actually FF through that shyt when I rewatch it. Who you fooling, Cat?

I was kind of surprised she arrested Tyrion like that straight out, because for the most part she's overly cautious unless her children are in danger. And arresting Tyrion could have put Sansa and Arya in KL in serious danger immediately, not to mention her husband who actually did get attacked by Jamie and the gang the moment Jamie found out because of her impulsiveness. Like everyone knows Lannisters don't take kindly to people fukking with them, if there as any time for her to be cautious Cat that was it!

I've noticed that all of my female friends who are show watchers/book readers don't have the same hatred for Cat that we do. They also don't have the same appreciation for Jon Snow as we do either. Could be a gender thing

 

[dennis roadman]

It's weird, I agree with everything you're saying. She's an important character, and I do understand why she's the way she is, but I still don't like her. I guess you can respect a character's importance while disliking them.

yeah she's not charismatic at all. i didnt wanna ride for her, but i respected her, like the teacher you dont wanna be around but always learn from

She was the de facto general in a war that is one million percent her goddamn fault because she got played like a board piece in Littlefinger's tiny hands

Cat even talked/begged OG Ned into agreeing with the marriage and becoming the Hand. And then of course the fukking dumb ass Tyrion move(s), and letting Jamie go, and goddammit Cat is the fukking worst. Not to mention she's now in the process of trying to debacle Jamie Lannister, Riverlands Sheriff

yeah but the guilt on her shoulders was a huge part of the story. she knew it was there and was so desperate to make it better, but ended up making it worse.

im not saying i like her, im just saying i find her interesting. AFFC is my favorite of the 5 books so you might wanna just allow my thoughts brehs

 

[Black Magisterialness]

I've noticed that all of my female friends who are show watchers/book readers don't have the same hatred for Cat that we do. They also don't have the same appreciation for Jon Snow as we do either. Could be a gender thing

I think so...I also connect TOUGH to Jon because I have a younger brother who is kinda like Robb and Bran at the same time (in my pops eyes he can do no wrong and yet he still kinda looks up to me). And my sister is black Arya to a tee

So i really feel Jon because there was hella anna between me and my step moms until i became a grown man, and yet she was forced to lean back because my brother was like "It doesn't matter, this is my brother and you cant change that." Jon is the quintessential outside kid.

I didn't HATE Cat per se, I more so felt like she was just governed by her emotions more than being a real leader an adviser. Robb woulda been much better off getting his great uncle, the Blackfish to be his closest adviser. Cat not only causes the war she's a large reason as to why it was lost by the north. Letting Jamie go and not killing him was a major morale boost for the Lannisters. Its also on Cat that descent and chaos was allowed to seep into the northern camp when the north's strength was its unity.

The Karstarks were one of the larger and more seasoned fighters in the Northern Army...

 

[Scottie Drippin]

yeah she's not charismatic at all. i didnt wanna ride for her, but i respected her, like the teacher you dont wanna be around but always learn from

yeah but the guilt on her shoulders was a huge part of the story. she knew it was there and was so desperate to make it better, but ended up making it worse.

im not saying i like her, im just saying i find her interesting. AFFC is my favorite of the 5 books so you might wanna just allow my thoughts brehs

Oh I'm not saying she isn't interesting. Cat's chapters are on balance better than anyones in the books. Just think about it, Renly's death and the Red Wedding are her POV. You get to see the workings of more shyt through her than anyone elses.

But it's fukk dat bytch all day

 

[beanz]

her initial instincts were good - snapping up Tyrion was the right thing to do, she thought he tried to kill Bran and had to know on some level the Lannisters were going to fukk with Ned in some kind of way that forced a Northern response, so grabbbing a hostage early in the process was a bold ass, proactive move imo - it was those "after the fact" instincts that sucked.

i agree with most of what u say except that part right there. the way i see it she sped up the beef unnecessarily. ned would have had more time to investigate before any eyes were on him. the tyrion situation just forced everybody's hand and catelyn was stupid for it because they JUST had the discussion where it was obvious they needed more proof. if ned had more time he probably would have found the proof and approached robert. if the tyrion situation hadn't popped up, robert doesnt get set up with the strong wine either. just a domino effect of shyt got kicked off with that kidnapping. for nothing because she lost him anyway.

 

[Microfracture]

I still don't understand why Cat would allow Robb to be bound by honor to Jeyne Westerling. It took 2 betrothals just to get past the Twins and they wanted to disrespect Walder Frey instead of having another b*stard tied to the Starks. Marrying Rosilyn Frey should have trumped the alternative.