A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

[O.Red]

Doesn't Jaquen pop up at the Citadel with a different face?

Yes he takes the face of Pate, a character in the prologue of the book

The faceless men also don't fukk with Targaryans, which is what caused the Doom of Valyria

 

[The War Report]

I’m close to finishing Clash of Kings. Theon has been made a fool of ever since he came back home. One humiliation after the other.

 

[DA_LURKA]

Yes he takes the face of Pate, a character in the prologue of the book...

If you peep he killed Pate the same way Arya killed that dude in Braavos... With the poisoned coin...

 

[ghostwriterx]

Books are way better. The characters are better in the books. I understand why the show cut corners and largely felt the first 4 seasons ranged from good to amazing. But the dynamics in the books are much more interesting, as is characterization. I was trying to explain to my mom, whose a big fan of the show, about some of the differences and she was shocked when I said Ned Stark and Jon Snow aren't known as great swordsman in the books. In the show they're badasses; Ned almost beats Jaime 1 on 1 in the first season, and Jon is unstoppable from S2 onwards with a sword lol.

But in the books Ned is described as a modest sword. He's considered an elite battle commander though, with a booming voice that rallies his troops. Flip side Jon is solid with a sword whereas Robb Stark is the one who's great at swordplay. And Jon isn't really that honorable in the novels. He's moreso like a very smart, very convincing politician who knows how to get shyt done.

Ceresi and Tywin are definitely better on the show. Book Ceresi is pathetic and stupid. Don't see much of Twyin in the books, don't have those great interactions with Arya. A lot of Littlefinger and Varys interactions were great and show only The show was pretty much great when they had source material. At the end the story is so sprawled out and unwieldly it's near impossible to land the ending correctly. Probably same reason why GRMM hasn't finished.

 

[MajesticLion]

Ceresi and Tywin are definitely better on the show. Book Ceresi is pathetic and stupid. Don't see much of Twyin in the books, don't have those great interactions with Arya. A lot of Littlefinger and Varys interactions were great and show only The show was pretty much great when they had source material. At the end the story is so sprawled out and unwieldly it's near impossible to land the ending correctly. Probably same reason why GRMM hasn't finished.

+ show-version Bronn

 

[O.Red]

Ceresi and Tywin are definitely better on the show. Book Ceresi is pathetic and stupid. Don't see much of Twyin in the books, don't have those great interactions with Arya. A lot of Littlefinger and Varys interactions were great and show only The show was pretty much great when they had source material. At the end the story is so sprawled out and unwieldly it's near impossible to land the ending correctly. Probably same reason why GRMM hasn't finished.

Show Cersei is pathetic and stupid too tho the book gives you even more insight to how pathetic, arrogant and stupid she is

I definitely agree that Tywin is better in the show, but this is is because Tywin is such a distant figure in the books. Book Tywin had barely any dialogue and is most spoken about through accounts. Charles Dance took Tywin to another level

 

[Piff Perkins]

Ceresi and Tywin are definitely better on the show. Book Ceresi is pathetic and stupid. Don't see much of Twyin in the books, don't have those great interactions with Arya. A lot of Littlefinger and Varys interactions were great and show only The show was pretty much great when they had source material. At the end the story is so sprawled out and unwieldly it's near impossible to land the ending correctly. Probably same reason why GRMM hasn't finished.

Cersei is pathetic and stupid in the show too, the difference is she doesn't suffer consequences because the show logic is bad. She blows up the religious leader of the entire kingdom in Baelor's Sept and nothing happens. I actually prefer Cersei in the novels because she's actually manipulative. She cajoles, seduces, bribes, etc. Whereas she's largely just morose and insufferable to those around her in the show. It's not a bad performance, I liked it. But I just prefer the book version.

A good example of my mental conception of book Cersei is Ilithyia from the Spartacus show. A beautiful woman using everything in her power to carve as much power for herself as possible.

 

[ghostwriterx]

Show Cersei is pathetic and stupid too tho the book gives you even more insight to how pathetic, arrogant and stupid she is

I definitely agree that Tywin is better in the show, but this is is because Tywin is such a distant figure in the books. Book Tywin had barely any dialogue and is most spoken about through accounts. Charles Dance took Tywin to another level

Cersei is pathetic and stupid in the show too, the difference is she doesn't suffer consequences because the show logic is bad. She blows up the religious leader of the entire kingdom in Baelor's Sept and nothing happens. I actually prefer Cersei in the novels because she's actually manipulative. She cajoles, seduces, bribes, etc. Whereas she's largely just morose and insufferable to those around her in the show. It's not a bad performance, I liked it. But I just prefer the book version.

A good example of my mental conception of book Cersei is Ilithyia from the Spartacus show. A beautiful woman using everything in her power to carve as much power for herself as possible.

One of my "beefs" with the the show is, show Cersei is WAY smarter than book Cersei.

What consequences where you expecting? She blew up al her opps Got rid of the head Sparrow and all his muscle, Margery, Loras and even her uncle. The smallfolk would've backed down after that. Half of them probably became atheists that day. She also badly outmaneuvered Tyrion, abandoned Lannisport, got the Tarlys to turn on theTyrells, stole their gold to pay off the crown's debt, securing the support of the Iron Bank, aligned with Euron to get his fleet, tricked Tyrion and Jamie into thinking she would agree to a truce etc. Much as I couldn't stand her, she was playing 3-D chess the last two seasons, especially when compared to Danerys "forgot about the Iron fleet". Even had a better team around her in Qyburn and super solider zombie Mountain, compare that with stumbling Tyrion and useless Varys. One more lucky shot on that last dragon/Danerys and she wins the war.

 

[Piff Perkins]

One of my "beefs" with the the show is, show Cersei is WAY smarter than book Cersei.

What consequences where you expecting? She blew up al her opps Got rid of the head Sparrow and all his muscle, Margery, Loras and even her uncle. The smallfolk would've backed down after that. Half of them probably became atheists that day. She also badly outmaneuvered Tyrion, abandoned Lannisport, got the Tarlys to turn on theTyrells, stole their gold to pay off the crown's debt, securing the support of the Iron Bank, aligned with Euron to get his fleet, tricked Tyrion and Jamie into thinking she would agree to a truce etc. Much as I couldn't stand her, she was playing 3-D chess the last two seasons, especially when compared to Danerys "forgot about the Iron fleet". Even had a better team around her in Qyburn and super solider zombie Mountain, compare that with stumbling Tyrion and useless Varys. One more lucky shot on that last dragon/Danerys and she wins the war.

She would have lost support from the other houses for that, and yes the people in the city would have revolted. The Lannister army wasn't even in the city at the time lol. It was a cool scene on a television show but...it made no sense in a world built on realistic consequences and reactions.

 

[O.Red]

One of my "beefs" with the the show is, show Cersei is WAY smarter than book Cersei.

What consequences where you expecting? She blew up al her opps Got rid of the head Sparrow and all his muscle, Margery, Loras and even her uncle. The smallfolk would've backed down after that. Half of them probably became atheists that day. She also badly outmaneuvered Tyrion, abandoned Lannisport, got the Tarlys to turn on theTyrells, stole their gold to pay off the crown's debt, securing the support of the Iron Bank, aligned with Euron to get his fleet, tricked Tyrion and Jamie into thinking she would agree to a truce etc. Much as I couldn't stand her, she was playing 3-D chess the last two seasons, especially when compared to Danerys "forgot about the Iron fleet". Even had a better team around her in Qyburn and super solider zombie Mountain, compare that with stumbling Tyrion and useless Varys. One more lucky shot on that last dragon/Danerys and she wins the war.

I see what you're saying but I think everything you're attributing to Cersei's intelligence would be portrayed even better in the book

We can all reasonably deduce that Cersei's gonna blow up/burn the Sept in the books, but keep in mind how Cersei was acting after the walk of shame.

At the end of Dance Cersei is "changed". She's seen the error of her ways and is a kind gentle spirit now. This is obviously a lie It appears to me that Cersei is gonna play this newly reformed, innocent role all the while planning to kill all of her enemies and revealing that she hasn't changed at all

This scenario seems far more intelligent to me than what actually happens in the show

 

[Piff Perkins]

I see what you're saying but I think everything you're attributing to Cersei's intelligence would be portrayed even better in the book

We can all reasonably deduce that Cersei's gonna blow up/burn the Sept in the books, but keep in mind how Cersei was acting after the walk of shame.

At the end of Dance Cersei is "changed". She's seen the error of her ways and is a kind gentle spirit now. This is obviously a lie It appears to me that Cersei is gonna play this newly reformed, innocent role all the while planning to kill all of her enemies and revealing that she hasn't changed at all

This scenario seems far more intelligent to me than what actually happens in the show

Another thing I disliked about the show: they clearly gave Margery that plot instead of Cersei. In the show, Margery gets out of prison and is seen as being reformed when in reality she's still loyal to her family. I agree Cersei is definitely on that path in the novel, given that last scene/mention of her in Dance.

I don't think she'll blow up the Sept in the books. But I think she will do something that turns the people against her, thus making Aegon's path easier. IMO he's going to roll to King's Landing and take the throne, with the people welcoming him as a savior. I don't know if Connington will make it there but his greyscale will in some form.

Winds sample chapter spoiler:

Spoiler: spoiler Winds

Arianne's second chapter ends with her being told that Aegon's forces have conquered Storm's End. It could be bullshyt, some fans think there are so hints that this is a ruse and Storm's End hasn't been taken yet. Assuming it HAS been taken, such a victory is gonna be a massive morale win for Aegon's cause. I don't think it's crazy to suggest some houses might pledge to him after this. Specifically the Tarlys.

 

[detroitwalt]

Cersei is pathetic and stupid in the show too, the difference is she doesn't suffer consequences because the show logic is bad. She blows up the religious leader of the entire kingdom in Baelor's Sept and nothing happens. I actually prefer Cersei in the novels because she's actually manipulative. She cajoles, seduces, bribes, etc. Whereas she's largely just morose and insufferable to those around her in the show. It's not a bad performance, I liked it. But I just prefer the book version.

A good example of my mental conception of book Cersei is Ilithyia from the Spartacus show. A beautiful woman using everything in her power to carve as much power for herself as possible.

Funny enough I just started rewatching that last week. Her locking everyone in in the season 1 finale was pretty damn ruthless.

 

[The Prince of All Saiyans]

Ilithyia from the Spartacus show.

she had my nut rag looking worse than a gym locker sock

 

[O.Red]

Another thing I disliked about the show: they clearly gave Margery that plot instead of Cersei. In the show, Margery gets out of prison and is seen as being reformed when in reality she's still loyal to her family. I agree Cersei is definitely on that path in the novel, given that last scene/mention of her in Dance.

I don't think she'll blow up the Sept in the books. But I think she will do something that turns the people against her, thus making Aegon's path easier. IMO he's going to roll to King's Landing and take the throne, with the people welcoming him as a savior. I don't know if Connington will make it there but his greyscale will in some form.

Winds sample chapter spoiler:

Spoiler: spoiler Winds

Arianne's second chapter ends with her being told that Aegon's forces have conquered Storm's End. It could be bullshyt, some fans think there are so hints that this is a ruse and Storm's End hasn't been taken yet. Assuming it HAS been taken, such a victory is gonna be a massive morale win for Aegon's cause. I don't think it's crazy to suggest some houses might pledge to him after this. Specifically the Tarlys.

I think Cersei definitely blows up/burns the Sept in the books. I'm leaning towards burns because I think Cersei's enemies suffering and dying in a sea of wildfire is the type of shyt that aligns with Grrm's storytelling.

I honestly believe Cersei blowing up the Sept is one of the major plot points George gives D&D. We know Cersei knows about the wildfire reserves, and I think it's ironic and devastating to Jamie that she essentially commits the act that he killed Aerys for. Also keep in mind that Jamie is the reason she knows about the wildfire in the first place

I'll be honest once I realized that Griff was going to be completely left out of the show I stopped thinking about him I don't think he has any significant effect on anything. Sure maybe he makes a little noise in Westeros, gets a few banners added to his cause, but to completely erase him for the show tells me his arc reaches a sharp dead end on some Bernie Sanders shyt. I do think the writers liked the idea of Jon Connington having greyscale and just transferred that story onto Jorah. I also think it's reasonable that Connington switches sides when he sees Dany in his face, all of Rhaegar's sister, being the real deal.

And damn how many Winds preview chapters are there?

 

[Piff Perkins]

I think Cersei definitely blows up/burns the Sept in the books. I'm leaning towards burns because I think Cersei's enemies suffering and dying in a sea of wildfire is the type of shyt that aligns with Grrm's storytelling.

I honestly believe Cersei blowing up the Sept is one of the major plot points George gives D&D. We know Cersei knows about the wildfire reserves, and I think it's ironic and devastating to Jamie that she essentially commits the act that he killed Aerys for. Also keep in mind that Jamie is the reason she knows about the wildfire in the first place

I'll be honest once I realized that Griff was going to be completely left out of the show I stopped thinking about him I don't think he has any significant effect on anything. Sure maybe he makes a little noise in Westeros, gets a few banners added to his cause, but to completely erase him for the show tells me his arc reaches a sharp dead end on some Bernie Sanders shyt. I do think the writers liked the idea of Jon Connington having greyscale and just transferred that story onto Jorah. I also think it's reasonable that Connington switches sides when he sees Dany in his face, all of Rhaegar's sister, being the real deal.

And damn how many Winds preview chapters are there?

I think the writers just skipped to the end so they could jump ship and do the Star Wars show. IMO they kinda gave Aegon’s story to Jon. Aegon will be hailed king and worshipped while Dany is seen as a foreign invader. And perhaps while liberating Kings Landing she goes mad or fukks up.

I think a lot of people will die before they realize Aegon is a fake (Blackfyre).