After reading this NYT article on the Nagasaki bombing, U.S. was truly pathetic

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"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." - Fleet Admiral William Leahy, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." - Norman Cousins, consultant to General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers Southwest Pacific Area

"Obviously . . . the atomic bomb neither induced the Emperor's decision to surrender nor had any effect on the ultimate outcome of the war." - Brigadier General Bonner Fellers, in charge of psychological warfare on General MacArthur's staff

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into war...The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life...
We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything." - Fleet Admiral Chester William Nimitz, Commander in Chief of Pacific Forces

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." - Dwight Eisenhower reflecting on the event 18 years later

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent."

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..." - Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander Europe

"[When he heard] 'the Potsdam declaration in July, demand that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary." - Biographer William Manchester describing the reaction of General Douglas MacArthur to the Potsdam declaration

"I am convinced that if you, as President, will make a shortwave broadcast to the people of Japan - tell them they can have their Emperor if they surrender, that it will not mean unconditional surrender except for the militarists - you'll get a peace in Japan - you'll have both wars over." - former president Herbert Hoover two months before the bomb was dropped

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs....The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul." - Herbert Hoover reflecting after the bomb was dropped

"...in the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision...If surrender could have been brought about in May, 1945, or even in June or July, before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the [Pacific] war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer." - Joseph Grew, former Ambassador to Japan and Under Secretary of State when the bomb was dropped

"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs." - John McCloy, Assistant Secretary of War when the bomb was dropped

"I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted." He continued, "In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb. Thus, it wouldn't have been necessary for us to disclose our nuclear position and stimulate the Russians to develop the same thing much more rapidly than they would have if we had not dropped the bomb." - Ralph Bard, Under Secretary of the Navy when the bomb was dropped

"It seemed to me that such a weapon was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion, that once used it would find its way into the armaments of the world..." - Lewis Strauss, Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Navy when the bomb was dropped

The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment...It was a mistake to ever drop it...[the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it...It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before. - Admiral William F. Halsey Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet

"I didn't like the atom bomb or any part of it." - Fleet Admiral Ernest J. King, Commander in Chief of U.S. Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations (King believed that a naval blockade would force Japan into surrender without any invasion or bombs ever being necessary.)

"The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air....
it always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse." - Commanding General of U.S. Army Air Forces Henry H. "Hap" Arnold

"Arnold's view was that it [the dropping of the atomic bomb] was unnecessary. He said that he knew the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it." - Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, deputy to Hap Arnold

"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all." - Major General Curtis E. LeMay, Commander of the Twenty-First Bomber Command

"if they knew or were told that no invasion would take place [and] that bombing would continue until the surrender, why I think the surrender would have taken place just about the same time." - General Carl Spaatz, in charge of U.S. Army Air Force Operations in the Pacific when the bomb was dropped

"Both men...felt Japan would surrender without use of the bomb, and neither knew why the second bomb was used." - former Ambassador to the Soviet Union Averell Harriman, describing the opinions of General Carl "Tooey" Spaatz, Commander of the U.S. Army Strategic Air Force, and General Frederick L. Anderson, Deputy Commanding General at USASTAF

Russia's entry into the Japanese war was the decisive factor in speeding its end and would have been so even if no atomic bombs had been dropped. - General Claire Chennault, Army Air Forces Commander in China

"What prevented them from suing for peace or from bringing their plot into the open was their uncertainty on two scores. First, they wanted to know the meaning of unconditional surrender and the fate we planned for Japan after defeat. Second, they tried to obtain from us assurances that the Emperor could remain on the throne after surrender."
"The Potsdam Declaration, in short, wrecked everything we had been working for to prevent further bloodshed...
"Just when the Japanese were ready to capitulate, we went ahead and introduced to the world the most devastating weapon it had ever seen and, in effect, gave the go-ahead to Russia to swarm over Eastern Asia.
"Washington decided that Japan had been given its chance and now it was time to use the A-bomb.
"I submit that it was the wrong decision. It was wrong on strategic grounds. And it was wrong on humanitarian grounds." - Ellis Zacharias, Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence when the bomb was dropped

"[T]he poor damn Japanese were putting feelers out by the ton so to speak, through Russia." - Colonel Charles "Tick" Bonesteel, Chief of the War Department Operations Division Policy Section

"we brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs." - Brigadier General Carter Clarke, military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables for Truman

"While I was working on the new plan of air attack... concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view was that Japan would capitulate by November 1945." - Paul Nitze, Vice-Chairman of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Group

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated." - Paul Nitze, reporting the Survey's conclusions. Nitze would later become U.S. Secretary of the Navy

"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why the Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan.... The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.... The hoary claim that the bomb prevented 500,000 American combat deaths is unsupportable." - J. Samuel Walker, chief historian of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, publishing in the academic journal Diplomatic History

“First, intelligence and other advice to President Truman, in significant part based on intercepted and secretly decoded Japanese cable traffic, indicated that from at least May 1945 on, Japan wished to end the war and seemed likely to do so if assurances were given that the emperor would not be eliminated. Second, similar advice to the president suggested that the shock of Soviet entry into the war (expected in early August) would likely tip the balance, almost certainly if combined with assurances conce rning the emperor. Third, Truman was advised by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy, Admiral Leahy, the acting Secretary of State Joseph E. Grew, and others to let Japan know that the emperor would not be eliminated; contrary to the claims of some historians, Truman made clear that he had no serious objection to offering such assurances.” - historians Gar Alperovitz and Kai Bird, writing in the Christian Science Monitor

"Prof. Albert Einstein... said that he was sure that President Roosevelt would have forbidden the atomic bombing of Hiroshima had he been alive and that it was probably carried out to end the Pacific war before Russia could participate." - Albert Einstein as quoted in the New York Times, 1946



:ohhh::dwillhuh::whoo:

Read that shyt. Military commanders across the table knew that Japan was READY TO SURRENDER and that the bombs WERE NOT NECESSARY. It was a political fukking decision made to test out the power of the bombs and intimidate Russia, and to ensure that we took control of Japan's surrender and not Russia.


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Don't miss this shyt in the quote above.

Apparently, it's typical for military and government leaders to turn anti-American after victorious wars and to claim that our "best decisions" were horrific mistakes.

And it's great PR for public figures to renounce a decision that 85% of Americans supported.

And it ALWAYS pays off to claim that America has committed an incredible atrocity in the immediate aftermath of a war, especially when the person making the claim is an American military leader themselves.


At least, that's what the ridiculous pro-American apologists in this thread believe. They will go to any length to deny that America committed an unnecessary atrocity, because that would counter everything they were taught about WW2 since they were little. The fruit of an American public that REALLY wants to believe that "us Caucasians" are always the most moral side in every war.

Sometimes, the truth makes more sense than blatant self-justifying lies. Especially when those who would know the truth best are the ones disseminating it.
 
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@The Dankster - Regarding your comment on Caucasian vs. Non-Caucasians in War. It is undeniable that Asians are heavily barbaric along with Arabs. Can you defend putting grenades and chemical explosive weapons in children's underwear? Nobody is saying CACs are holy, untouchable, righteous and just. But these two races take things to extreme levels and they are certainly things that Africans do not do on the regular basis in African civil wars and conflicts.

As if "grenades and chemical explosive weapons in children's underwear" was something that happened "on the regular basis" in any nation's history.

I like how you tried to slip in Africa there. But your original statement was "non-Caucasian", clearly showing you drawing the line between Caucasian and everyone else. Like Caucasians didn't practice some of the most horrific slavery of their conquered populations the world has ever seen. Like Caucasians didn't rape female children in almost every war they've ever participated in. Like the fukking Russians weren't Caucasian. Like the fukking NAZIS weren't Caucasian. Like Caucasians didn't mow down 1,000 unarmed Indians in 10 minutes in Jallianwala Bagh. Like we didn't do horrific atrocities ourselves in Vietnam. Not to mention firebombing the civilian population of entire cities or dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations...you know, the horrific, indefensible atrocities we're talking about in this very thread.

And no race is clean on this shyt. Talking about Africa - do you know some of the shyt that went down in Rwanda? Or Somalia? How about Boko Haram? Idi Amin? Do you know the shyt that the Lord's Resistance Army did? The wars in Congo, Liberia, the Central African Republic, and Sierra Leone had some horrible, horrible shyt happen.

Wars breed brutality. The Asians aren't on any special shyt regarding this.



Now as far as the survey - Yes I've heard they have claimed Japan would have surrendered before Winter but I don't really buy it. The Emperor barely knew what the fukk was going on until the last minute. Now the problem with your comment on they wanted to sue for peace etc etc. First off fighting to keep the Emperor in was stupid as fukk. It is the ignorance of the Emperor which is the exact reason why the U.S. government demanded greater clarification and restrictions on his role because the absence of knowledge SHOULD NOT vindicate you from the abuses of control of your subordinates. Hence why Nixon had to resign in disgrace after Watergate.

How can you dismiss the survey so casually when they had all that evidence at their disposal, actually lived in that time and could meet the people involved, and had no reason to come to a conclusion that would make the US look bad?

Especially when the survey's conclusions agree with what dozens of highly involved military and government leaders also had determined?

As most Japanese-knowledgeable people in the US power structure stated, if the US had simply said that surrender meant greater clarification and restrictions on the emperor's role, then the surrender could have been obtained much sooner. In fact, if they have clarified that as well as that "total surrender" didn't mean that Japan would become a US possession, they could have gotten surrender as early as June and certainly by November, without any bombing or invasion.



My entire argument has no hole; the Japanese men, women, children, and people of military uniform were willing to fight to the end, but the Japanese Emperor decided (after the Second bomb was dropped) that the Japanese were going to surrender on America's terms.

* You don't have the slightest evidence that "the second bomb was dropped" was the reason the Japanese Emperor decided to surrender. The surrender occurred 9 days after the first bomb, 6 days after the second bomb, and on the very day the Russian invasion was originally slated to begin. Your argument is based on timing alone, and even the timing is a poor argument - how do you know 1 bomb wouldn't have been enough if we gave them a week to think about it like we did after the 2nd one? How do you know avoiding the Russian invasion wasn't the real reason for surrender?

* The second set of giant holes in your argument are that the guys who were reading the Japanese cables, the guys who poured over all available evidence after the war, and the military and state guys who best knew the actual military situation, all strongly disagree with your analysis. Even though you can't give a rational reason for them to oppose an extremely popular US action at such a sensitive time.

* And the final hole in your argument is what I already stated - nothing you said applied any differently before the bombing as it did after. If your argument was correct before the bombs, it would have still held afterwards. You have to make huge assumptions that go against the actual evidence that has been gathered to get from your psychoanalysis to the actual data.
 

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I'll preface with this: I have been studying Japanese and Asian history since I was 14. I love Japan and have a Japanese Wife. Regardless...

Where did you get the crazy idea that Japan was "trying" to surrender?

Let me tell you something, Japanese government was posturing at best. As some other guys mentioned above there are a million and one geopolitical factors that went into deciding on the atomic bomb as the approach and no one answer is 100% correct. But for the purposes of my response I will focus on merely the point of this: The U.S. was exhausted on the Euro front and knew Public Opinion would soon reach a breaking point. The Japanese government did not appear sincere in their desire to cease expansion. Thus the decision was made. It's no one's fault but the Japanese and I'll explain why below.

The short version: Hiroshima and Nagasaki is karma for the atrocities Japanese soldiers committed in China upon the civilians there. They did a number of science experiments upon POWs which included innocent civilians. The deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki pale in comparison to the number of Chinese raped and killed. Just like many of the Nazis never stood up and said this was wrong, ultimately personal responsibility has to be taken when things get this out of hand. All parties must be held responsible this includes the Japanese. They didn't just want to conquer China they wanted to annihilate them and considered them to be sub-human. The Japanese at that time thought they were similar to the Germans and genetically superior to all Asians. The types of atrocities committed on your fellow Man was unforgivable. Putting a bullet in the head of an enemy soldier is a completely different thing than torturing unarmed civilians who are not resisting subjugation.

Here's the long version:

The fact remains is after Iwo Jima our military intelligence determined we did not have the spare troops to fully invade Japan. And with current public opinion and funds already stretched to the max in Europe they were more or less correct on this point. And you have to realize as a President you must take risks and gambles, many times on WHAT YOU SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW FULLY. All we knew was that actions speak louder than words and the Japanese actions in the pacific showed they had no regard for human lives other than their own and in order to drive the message home we would have to make devastating decisions.

We knew the Japanese government was capable of sending 15 year old boys as Kamikaze pilots. Now how far do we extend our assumptions? It was extended long enough to gauge that a mainland invasion would be impossible because both Russia and the U.S. were too invested on the European front. And this was mostly true. Wars depend on the public. Once public perception and feedback goes to the shytter you are operating on borrowed time as a military commander you must show results and show them quickly.

People have very little patience for long Wars in the post-industrial era. Now this is proof the U.S. does not learn from it's mistakes because in reality the ferocity of Iwo Jima rivaled that of trench warfare but paled in comparison to the Korean War where you had babies being used to hide grenades in their diapers. The Vietnamese used this same tactic. America had no idea what it was getting into when it came to fighting non-Caucasian nations. Therefore they felt drastic measures needed to be taken to save lives on both sides. So do I feel they were morally wrong by dropping the bomb - Yes, but what act of War is morally correct? How many more Japanese would have died had a mainland invasion be determined to be necessary? Probably a hell of a lot more. Also guess what - Winter time was fast approaching and that was almost certainly a factor as well - It always is in combat. The reality is our forces were exhausted in Europe and the American people would not approve extending the War to finish off Japan. Yet if Japan were not neutralized all of Asia would fall to them.

Why it's the Common Man's fault as well:

Don't tell me Japan was "Trying" to surrender. You either surrender or you don't. They were trying to NEGOTIATE more territory from the Russians and salvage national pride they weren't trying to surrender. This is not about legacies of groups of people anymore this is about GOVERNMENTS. And as a citizen of any Government you are responsible for determining if it is properly representing you. I am not sure what made the Japanese so incredibly dense when it related to their government during that time period. There were wars waged in the past over opening their economy. So how do they go from being isolationist to imperialist? One extreme to another. Ultimately this is not the first time this discussion was had publicly and as we know none of their actions during WWII were defensive in nature. I'm not sure why the soldiers subscribed to this foolishness that was handed down from the military generals. Everyone knows the Emperor has little to no idea what is happening in the "Real World" this has been the case since the Shogun days, hence the necessity for the existence of a military commander. So the reality is the military commander everyone knows is the true leader and the Emperor has ALWAYS been a religious figurehead. He has never had any power. So why in God's name would you not question at this point in time the General's intentions when IN THE PAST Shoguns have been overthrown in mutiny SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE SPECIFICALLY BEING ACCUSED OF TREACHERY AND TREASON TO THE EMPEROR AND THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES?

What we should be asking is the question of why the people blindly subscribed to the Generals in that time when this was NEVER THE CASE in the past...Shoguns were always questioned and CHALLENGED hence the need for ninjas back then, because there was ALWAYS a subversive group. WHY was there little to no subversive groups in Japan during this time? The U.S. obviously had the same question otherwise the bomb would not have even been considered. Large 1st world powerful nations prefer not to get their hands dirty. Proxy wars are the way these nations wield their power by empowering groups that align with their interests and sentiments. The answers vary but none is conclusive or decisive in telling why there was such a dumb blind allegiance to the people in control at that time during Japan's imperialism era.
@The Dankster needs to read this in fully

He's copying and pasting quotes from dudes who woke up in the 50s and realized "oh shyt, my bad" instead of looking at what these men said in August of 1945...he couldn't be more dishonest if he tried
 

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Hegemony hos and terrorism apologists aren't convinced by evidence
 

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Don't miss this shyt in the quote above.

Apparently, it's typical for military and government leaders to turn anti-American after victorious wars and to claim that our "best decisions" were horrific mistakes.

And it's great PR for public figures to renounce a decision that 85% of Americans supported.

And it ALWAYS pays off to claim that America has committed an incredible atrocity in the immediate aftermath of a war, especially when the person making the claim is an American military leader themselves.


At least, that's what the ridiculous pro-American apologists in this thread believe. They will go to any length to deny that America committed an unnecessary atrocity, because that would counter everything they were taught about WW2 since they were little. The fruit of an American public that REALLY wants to believe that "us Caucasians" are always the most moral side in every war.

Sometimes, the truth makes more sense than blatant self-justifying lies. Especially when those who would know the truth best are the ones disseminating it.
The only bad bombs are american bombs :mjlol:

I love this shyt. Everyone else plays dirty but we're not supposed to :heh:

Man this shyt is disgusting :snoop:
 

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I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Potsdam was a bad idea, and many of our own people knew that. The fact that people from other nations co-signed a bad idea doesn't make it a good idea.

The actual Potsdam declaration was only cosigned by three nations. US, Britain, and China. Britain knew even less about the Japanese than we did, and China wanted the war to keep going until Japan was completely and utterly destroyed and would have loved for the Japanese emperor to be gone for good. So they're not exactly the ones we can dump that decision off on, are they?

The only point I was trying to make, was that America wasn't solely responsible for the fukkery that was Potsdam. A more enlightened policy would have required a nation that both knew Japanese culture AND didn't want to see Japan wiped off the earth. As of 1945, that country didn't exist.

Read the results of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey. That panel had NO reason to be revisionist or to find anything other than the military truth. And they found that without any more bombing at all, and without Russian invasion, Japan still would have surrendered before November 1, which wouldn't have been long enough to result in "mass starvation".

And those political quotes can't all be revisionist - Truman and Bard at least are on official record from June 1945 as opposing the drop as it was done.

Yes, some of the military types argued for a blockade. They wanted to put it in Japanese hands rather than causing the killing themselves.

You can't ignore the threat of the Russians or say that their invasion wasn't going to happen, because stopping them would have required America to have changed the agreements we made at Cairo and Yalta, way before a lot of the other bullshyt. I'll hold my thoughts on the rest until I look at the Survey.

You know when the initially planned starting date for the Russian invasion was? August 15th.

The choice wasn't "drops the bombs or partition Japan". Japan didn't want partition either - they would have surrendered to us in a heartbeat to avoid Russian invasion even if we had never dropped the bombs, as long as we just assured that we'd let them keep the emperor, which we did.

Then why didn't they negotiate with anyone but the treacherous ass Russians? Why didn't they respond to Potsdam with that idea? All they had to do was go to Switzerland or Sweden and say "We'll take the deal as long as we can keep the Emperor as a figurehead. We need him for our nation/religion in the same way that the King of England is the head of the Anglican Church".

You can have two opposing ideas that are both true at the same time. Nagasaki can be both an atrocity, and the best of the fukked up ideas that America had at the time.
 

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Japan as a whole wasn't doing anything...it was the gov't. If you held it to the standards as any other country of that era, every person who is a citizen of that country is guilty. :stopitslime:
Actually, Japan was forcing every citizen to play a role as much as they could convince anyone to do so.

They ran that shyt like a machine.
 

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* You don't have the slightest evidence that "the second bomb was dropped" was the reason the Japanese Emperor decided to surrender. The surrender occurred 9 days after the first bomb, 6 days after the second bomb, and on the very day the Russian invasion was originally slated to begin. Your argument is based on timing alone, and even the timing is a poor argument - how do you know 1 bomb wouldn't have been enough if we gave them a week to think about it like we did after the 2nd one? How do you know avoiding the Russian invasion wasn't the real reason for surrender?
"By the morning of Aug. 9, the Japanese Supreme War Council was meeting to discuss the terms of surrender. (During the meeting, the second atomic bomb killed tens of thousands at Nagasaki.) On Aug. 15, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally."
They surrendered because of the second Nuclear bomb and the possibility of the Soviet Union further invading Japanese territories. You can't possibly think the Japanese solely surrendered because of the possibility of a full-scale Soviet invasion and not because of the Nuclear bombs effects on Japan's people and infrastructure. Tens of thousands of civilians died from the first bomb and they still didn't readily surrender like they did when the second bomb was dropped. The blame falls squarely on the Japanese government and military officials.

* The second set of giant holes in your argument are that the guys who were reading the Japanese cables, the guys who poured over all available evidence after the war, and the military and state guys who best knew the actual military situation, all strongly disagree with your analysis. Even though you can't give a rational reason for them to oppose an extremely popular US action at such a sensitive time.
What you pointed out were viewpoints of American leaders after the war, what I posted were communications between Japanese government and military officials themselves.
If the arguement is "was Japan going to surrender before the bombs were dropped" then the answere is no. Them preparing a Kyushu invasion backs this up.

* And the final hole in your argument is what I already stated - nothing you said applied any differently before the bombing as it did after. If your argument was correct before the bombs, it would have still held afterwards. You have to make huge assumptions that go against the actual evidence that has been gathered to get from your psychoanalysis to the actual data.
Can you further elaborate here.
 
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