ALL TIME....THE HEART BREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS...or the MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE...REAL simple

[ZEB WALTON]

shawn michaels is the most overrated wrestler in history. he was NEVER the man. they TRIEEEEED SOOO HAAAAARD but nope. bret was way better and I aint the biggest bret fan. yall overrate those shawn "late in career" classics. dude was NEVER a draw. when he came back I was done with wrestling because all the top guys were gone by 2000 pretty much or on their way out. I gave no fukks when shawn came back. dude was always a baby and everyone in the kliq had a better run. shawn was a transition guy, that's it

and never compare him to macho... ever. macho was one of the most charismatic wrestlers ever. he was a prototype of what you thought a wrestler was.. some big crazy mofo in real life. f shawn michaels

 

[TNC]

Cena is a bigger star than Macho Man was.

Justin Bieber is a bigger star than Nas


More commercial success doesn't imply greater artistic merit

Cena is not a bigger star than Macho Man. Macho Man was and STILL IS a household name, he is SYNONYMOUS with Slim Jims and commercials. His death caught NATIONWIDE attention. He was was almost as notable in the mainstream as Hogan was. Cena is barely known by the mainstream, he does promos on talk shows often and the crowd doesn't even recognize him. Cena HAS been pushed much much harder than Macho Man or most mentioned in this thread, but outside of the wrestling bubble he isn't even more known than Undertaker or Million Dollar Man.... honestly, think about that. It almost speaks as to how big a failure Cena's run has been all things considered.


And are you truly arguing Cena has any sort of artistic merit or craft in wrestling over fukkING MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE?!?!?!?

 

[patscorpio]

:macho:

this nikka was ruthless but discipline is key..god bless the macho man

 

[TNC]

I just told you the deal, havent thought about that shyt. And ran me off? Lol wrestlefag please. The only time we ever even spoke on there was the night we had that long conversation about Trayvon and Zimmerman and you thought the coast was clear because it was just us cacs so you could vent how you really felt about all them damn minorities. I wasnt even trying to interact with your lame ass after that. You were a non-factor.

You ain't a fan of us negros, @Henzo ???

 

[TNC]

Shawn Michaels matches rated 4.5*+ by Meltzer:

• vs Bret Hart, Survivor Series (1992) - 4.5 stars
  
• vs Marty Jannetty, Monday Night Raw (1993) - 4.75 stars
  
• vs Razor Ramon, WrestleMania X (1994) - 5 stars
• [& Diesel] vs Razor Ramon & 123 Kid, "WWF Action Zone #2" (1994) - 4.5 stars
  
• vs Razor Ramon, Summerslam (1995) - 4.75 stars
  
• vs Jeff Jarrett, IYH 2 (1995) - 4.5 stars
• vs Diesel, IYH 7 (1996) - 4.5 stars
  
• vs Mankind, IYH10 (1996) - 4.75 stars
  
• vs Undertaker, IYH 18 (1997) - 5 stars
• vs HHH vs Chris Benoit, WrestleMania XX (2004) - 4.75 stars
• vs HHH vs Chris Benoit, Backlash (2004) - 4.5 stars
• vs Kurt Angle, WrestleMania XXI (2005) - 4.75 stars
• vs Kurt Angle, Vengeance (2005) - 4.5 stars
• vs Edge vs Randy Orton vs John cena, Backlash (2007) - 4.5 stars
• vs Chris Jericho, No Mercy (2008) - 4.5 stars
• vs The Undertaker, WrestleMania XXV (2009) - 4.75 stars
• vs The Undertaker, WrestleMania XXVI (2010) - 4.75 stars

Randy Savage matches rated 4.5*+ by Meltzer:

• vs Ricky Steamboat, WrestleMania III (1987) - 4.5 stars

Obviously that's just one guys opinion, your mileage may vary etc etc. I'd find it hard to believe that he's underrating Macho Man's resumé by enough that it would get close to even though. He doesn't even have HBK vs Jericho at WMXIX or vs HHH at Summerslam 02 as 4.5* matches

....Unless it isn't

 

[TNC]

so biggie can't be one of the greatest rappers ever cause he only had a hot 2-3 year run??

what warrior accomplished in those 2-3 years dwarfs anything bret or shawn ever did. neither of those guys reached the heights or the peak that he did.

longevity means dikk in this case. great shawn has been puttin on hits for 25 years. warrior beat HULK HOGAN in his prime for the fukkin title at wrestlemania.

warrior > shawn

We all love BIG but objectively, you can't put him over people that produced more than 2 classics and had a run that lasted over a decade. Subjectivity only goes so far....

 

[TNC]

not exactly, but partially.

warrior isn't to wrestling what biggie was to hip hop, but he WAS a massive star who reached heights few in the business have before or since... even if it was only for a short period of time.

for all of shawn's longevity and classic matches/moments, he never did what warrior did.

warrior had a unanimous MVP + finals MVP type season. shawn never came close to that.

You had me going.... but you lost me here, homie...

 

[PYRRHUS 88]

Cena is not a bigger star than Macho Man. Macho Man was and STILL IS a household name, he is SYNONYMOUS with Slim Jims and commercials. His death caught NATIONWIDE attention. He was was almost as notable in the mainstream as Hogan was. Cena is barely known by the mainstream, he does promos on talk shows often and the crowd doesn't even recognize him. Cena HAS been pushed much much harder than Macho Man or most mentioned in this thread, but outside of the wrestling bubble he isn't even more known than Undertaker or Million Dollar Man.... honestly, think about that. It almost speaks as to how big a failure Cena's run has been all things considered.


And are you truly arguing Cena has any sort of artistic merit or craft in wrestling over fukkING MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE?!?!?!?

I thought it was obvious that my implication was the exact opposite of that? You missed the point entirely. I was arguing that someone being a bigger star than someone else, really doesn't matter when we're discussing an artistic performance. Which would mean that I was implying that Macho Man clearly has more artistic merit despite Cena having more commercial success.


Your first paragraph contains a lot of claims that may be either true or false. "Cena does talk shows and the crowd doesn't even recognize him" - how would you arrive at that conclusion? Watch every John Cena TV appearance, find out the names and addresses of everyone who was in the audience, and then poll them with the question "Did you know who John Cena was before this?". Similarly your claims that he's not more well known than DiBiase, or that he's barely known by people who aren't wrestling fans: it's impossible for you to know that. The only evidence you could possibly have to support those claims would be anecdotal ie. "My mom hasn't heard of him and neither have 3 of my friends moms". Such evidence is of course worthless.

If you want to use an (obviously crude) quantitative measure we could use google hits: "John Cena" returns ~1.7 million, "The Undertaker" returns ~0.5 million (both search terms with quotes). I won't bother applying the same test to any of the other names because obviously they're from a bygone era so not directly comparable by this method. I don't even think those search results necessarily prove all that much, but your unsupported claims prove even less.

 

[TNC]

I thought it was obvious that my implication was the exact opposite of that? You missed the point entirely. I was arguing that someone being a bigger star than someone else, really doesn't matter when we're discussing an artistic performance. Which would mean that I was implying that Macho Man clearly has more artistic merit despite Cena having more commercial success.


Your first paragraph contains a lot of claims that may be either true or false. "Cena does talk shows and the crowd doesn't even recognize him" - how would you arrive at that conclusion? Watch every John Cena TV appearance, find out the names and addresses of everyone who was in the audience, and then poll them with the question "Did you know who John Cena was before this?". Similarly your claims that he's not more well known than DiBiase, or that he's barely known by people who aren't wrestling fans: it's impossible for you to know that. The only evidence you could possibly have to support those claims would be anecdotal ie. "My mom hasn't heard of him and neither have 3 of my friends moms". Such evidence is of course worthless.

If you want to use an (obviously crude) quantitative measure we could use google hits: "John Cena" returns ~1.7 million, "The Undertaker" returns ~0.5 million. I won't bother applying the same test to any of the other names because obviously they're from a bygone era so not directly comparable by this method. I don't even think those search results necessarily proves all that much, but your unsupported claims prove even less.

Dude, I don't know you or what you are implying. Why imply it at all, just SAY that shyt lol. I can only base your argument off of what you actually say, not some vague implication that may or may not even be implied.


YOU said Cena is a bigger star than Savage, I disagree and it boggles my mind how you can say that unless you were either not watching during Savage's time or haven't done the homework. Cena IS pushed harder than Savage ever was, but he has NOT reached the same level of success (notoriety, sales numbers, fan and critic approval and overall acceptance) that Randy Savage had. IF you believe different, you are going to have to prove it because as someone that was watching since BEFORE Savage debuted, those two aren't even close to comparable. In what merit is John Cena more successful than Randy Savage?

Cats really showing their youth in these discussions.

 

[TNC]

But the numbers state that he's one of the most popular (merch sales would confirm this), biggest drawing (look at those WM records) wrestlers ever. Top 4 along with Hogan, Austin and Rock undeniably.

He's also been booked to go over everyone for years and years, which you've already said you see as an indicator of greatness in Warrior's case.

What numbers prove that? Merch is WWE distributed and they actively choose which guys to focus merch products on. They made a point to give Cena the MOST amount of merchandise of any wrestler ever, he's had more products than even Hogan had.

And Cena has been on top for 10 years, inflated WM numbers aside, what are his typical PPV numbers looking like?

 

[PYRRHUS 88]

Dude, I don't know you or what you are implying. Why imply it at all, just SAY that shyt lol. I can only base your argument off of what you actually say, not some vague implication that may or may not even be implied.


YOU said Cena is a bigger star than Savage, I disagree and it boggles my mind how you can say that unless you were either not watching during Savage's time or haven't done the homework. Cena IS pushed harder than Savage ever was, but he has NOT reached the same level of success (notoriety, sales numbers, fan and critic approval and overall acceptance) that Randy Savage had. IF you believe different, you are going to have to prove it because as someone that was watching since BEFORE Savage debuted, those two aren't even close to comparable. In what merit is John Cena more successful than Randy Savage?

Cats really showing their youth in these discussions.

I was using the logical approach of reductio ad absurdum, deriving a patently false conclusion (Bieber >>> Nas) from a given hypothesis ("x is a bigger star than y => x is better than y") thereby disproving the hypothesis




I wasn't really trying to make an argument about whether Cena is a bigger star than Macho Man, I was trying to argue that who is the bigger star doesn't really matter

 

[TNC]

I was using the logical approach of reductio ad absurdum, deriving a patently false conclusion (Bieber >>> Nas) from a given hypothesis ("x is a bigger star than y => x is better than y") thereby disproving the hypothesis




I wasn't really trying to make an argument about whether Cena is a bigger star than Macho Man, I was trying to argue that who is the bigger star doesn't really matter

You trying to hard to sound smart man, You don't need to bring in strict formulas when we are discussion something with more variable and subjective components than hard data ones AND you don't need to bring in Google Searches. Honestly, doing that is FREE. it doesn't cost someone anything to search someone in google, find out how much money they are actually paying to see that person perform and you are saying more. Like for example you said "Bieber >>> Nas"? How? Not in critical acclaim, longevity or body of work. Success runs deeper than sales even tho sales ARE just as an important factor as the former ones.


And who the biggest star is, IS important when talking about success and the business side of this. Strictly put, comparing HBK to Savage, Savage's highs were HIGHER than HBKs and he didn't have the luxury of being McMahon's pet project, he was quite the opposite actually.

 

[PYRRHUS 88]

You trying to hard to sound smart man, You don't need to bring in strict formulas when we are discussion something with more variable and subjective components than hard data ones AND you don't need to bring in Google Searches. Honestly, doing that is FREE. it doesn't cost someone anything to search someone in google, find out how much money they are actually paying to see that person perform and you are saying more. Like for example you said "Bieber >>> Nas"? How? Not in critical acclaim, longevity or body of work. Success runs deeper than sales even tho sales ARE just as an important factor as the former ones.


And who the biggest star is, IS important when talking about success and the business side of this. Strictly put, comparing HBK to Savage, Savage's highs were HIGHER than HBKs and he didn't have the luxury of being McMahon's pet project, he was quite the opposite actually.

1) Actually it comes effortlessly breh but thanks

2) I think we're in agreement that those things you listed are important. HBK has plenty of all three. That's why I think it's crazy to put, say, Ultimate Warrior above him, which is the direction the last few pages of this thread went in.

2) I guess that's where we fundamentally aren't going to agree: I don't care about the business side of art/entertainment. Other people do I guess. It's all good

 

[BlackDiBiase]

Hogan said he made the most money ever, with Savage.

 

[TNC]

1) Actually it comes effortlessly breh but thanks

2) I think we're in agreement that those things you listed are important. HBK has plenty of all three. That's why I think it's crazy to put, say, Ultimate Warrior above him, which is the direction the last few pages of this thread went in.

2) I guess that's where we fundamentally aren't going to agree: I don't care about the business side of art/entertainment. Other people do I guess. It's all good

1. I should hope so, its not difficult for anyone that is.

2. We, at least I am, not talking about Warrior. We are talking about Macho Man Randy Savage a guy who's career actually spans LONGER than HBK's. I'm just now reading this thread, so I'm still focused at the topic at hand. HBK doesn't trump Savage in all of those catergories

3. <-- 3, not 2, you are smarter than this . But seriously, if you are ONLY talking about a kayfabe basis and not the real life business aspects of it, on what level would HBK be higher than Savage? Or is HBK/Savage not what you are speaking on anymore?