Allen Iverson >>>wade
- Thread starter Playa With Tha Passport
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Seeing as how Iverson was at his best when he controlled the offense and relied on simple offensive sets plus his amazing isolation ability while having a bunch of elite defenders covered up his lack of defensive versatility and size, it's pretty important. That team was built around having Iverson dominate the ball.
Dikembe was non-existent on offense but he was the main factor that allowed the 76ers to beat Ray Allen in the playoffs. The 76ers got into the playoffs in one of the weaker Easts we've seen and they barely made it to the playoffs.
I mean, Iverson didn't have a bunch of superstars but they weren't bums.,
yes that team was built around Iverson to let him dominate the ball. For most of these guys the task was to play defense. Dikembe did his thang also, that was his last year of that real Mutombo as he would later be having too many injuries to deal with.
Only Iverson and Mckie could shoot three pointers. Guys like George Lynch and Jumaine Jones playing 20 minutes per game in the playoffs. 32yr old Tyrone Hill playing 30 minutes per game....that's a trainwreck of a squad. You mention Bucks....that team actually had a better supporting cast than Sixers, on paper they were slightly better:
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell
Glenn Robinson
that's three really great players on offense that you have to worry about. And Tim Thomas was good for 20 something minutes per game. Their defense wasnt good though, also Karl being that coach who was always coming up short in playoffs, and eventually they lost to sixers + a few questionable mistakes from refs.
You gotta look at the rest of the league though. Outside of Kobe and Shaq who had each other, who really had it that much better? The league still hadn't fully recovered from expansion and talent was spread too thin. Scoring 100 points was big deal and most games were grind it out affairs. Most squads followed the "star player and a bunch of nikkas" model. shyt was so bad in that era that people were so
at two great players playing together in this era (despite it being the norm throughout history) that they created the term "superteam". So yes, in that league, 6 MOY and COY was huge help.
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I see what you mean but there were some teams with a pretty decent roster, not necessary a two stars playing together but at least a reasonable roster with good mix of scorers and good defenders. Kings had a nice team, even Blazers were pretty good coming off a wcf. Spurs had a well built team. Dallas had young dirk, nash, finley...and so onYou gotta look at the rest of the league though. Outside of Kobe and Shaq who had each other, who really had it that much better? The league still hadn't fully recovered from expansion and talent was spread too thin. Scoring 100 points was big deal and most games were grind it out affairs. Most squads followed the "star player and a bunch of nikkas" model. shyt was so bad in that era that people were so
the east was really bad back then, but the way sixers were built AI would have never won anything even in that era. I dont know if thats how AI wanted his team too look like or was it sixers just blindly building the way that AI would be the only scorer. They had stackhouse and he was gone, they had hughes too and he was gone. And then it took him years until sixers finally found some good talent in korver and iggy, but that shyt was a little too late. If you take away the best player from the eastern teams that went to the 2001 playoffs most of them would be better than sixers, thats the point.
knicks without sprewell would still have allan houston, marcus camby, kurt thomas, glen rice
bucks without allen would still have cassell, glenn robinson, tim thomas
and so on...
what I am trying to say is that run AI had in 01 is one of those where superstars that took a team to the finals without much help. Just like Bron in 07. So I dont get this AI had a huge help thing....his supporting cast literally had no offensive talent besides Mckie. They lived and died with AI on offense. In that year AI was phenomenal, and can't take that away from him.
It was AIs fault they got rid of Stack and Hughes, he couldn't get along with them on the floor. The 6ers managed to be competitive against a completely healthy Bucks squad on the road without AI in the CF that year. You said it yourself, the east was shytty. So it didn't take much to win the conference. A common mistake that people make (still do it to this day) is assuming a star player is carrying a squad when they can't point to another 20 pt scorer. The key to that 6ers squad's success was defense, just like those 07 Cavs, the Reggie Miller Pacers, and the Rockets from a couple years ago. No matter what you gotta have a certain level of help, relative to your completion, to make it to the Finals. He was phenomenal and he deserves his props but people tend to overrate what he did that year while underrating everyone else did because they weren't dropping 30.
ITS A DISCUSSION, BUT RINGS GIVE THE EDGE TO WADE
But it depends from which way you look at it.
The most important thing of the game is offense, and without AI the sixers only had Mckie, former role player who joined sixers from averaging less than 10pts per game before. All these guys were role players, having one main role for the game. Every NBA championship team had at least two or three good scorers to carry the team, whether its dirk and terry, or sheed, billups and rip hamilton, or something obviously great like Shaq and Kobe.
the east was shytty and it still took AI and sixers a lot to win the conference because they went to game 7 against raps and bucks. All of that because AI was the only one legit threat on the offense. But like you said his selfishness is what did a lot of harm to his career, if stackhouse stayed maybe they could have went to finals twice. Of course every team needs sort of help to make it to the finals, but what AI had is considered one of the worst supporting casts ever. So I myself give a lot of credit to AI for that run in 01.
And sixers were almost the same next year, had to deal with injuries but came up with quite healthy roster for the playoffs, and they lost to celtics in 1st round with the same roster. Dikembe and Mckie playing their minutes, eric snow as well. Just a new addition of washed up derrick coleman. AI had a worse series than the year before, attempted 7 field goals less, and it stopped with the 1st round already. Looks like his supporting cast didnt help enough.
Every NBA championship team was capable of stopping people. The level of scoring varies but defense remains pretty constant. Great offenses usually underachieve while great defenses generally overachieve. We see squads that can defend beat squads with more or better scorers all the time. Dirk and Terry were pretty good but they were nowhere near Wade and Bron and Bosh but who won? Billups and Rip beat Kobe and Shaq.
6ers got pushed in the East and destroyed in the Finals because they weren't that good. AI had one main role himself...throw up shots. Those great role players covered for him on defense and didn't bytch about shots despite him taking 30 and shooting 40%. He would've had a better offensive supporting cast if he wasn't so selfish. You can't acknowledge his selfishness and cop pleas for the lack of offensive talent around him when it was clearly a result of his selfishness.
You are right, the squad around him wasn't good enough the next year or really any other year going forward in his career. I can acknowledge that. However if you are crediting him with "carrying" them in 01 then you are also saying he didn't help enough all those other years.
Thats why I said, its how you look at it, great defense can stop players from scoring, except obviously the superstars, you can only maintain them, shutting down happens very rarely. But with all this great defense in the world you need at least two good scorers to win the championship. One guy can't carry the whole team on offense you need another guy to get those 20 points or near that, no matter how great was your defense. Sixers never really had that 2nd guy.
What AI did that year was carrying the team with no offense to the finals, he did maximum job of that. Its universally accepted as one of the weakest supporting casts ever to play in the finals. SO I have a problem when people say "oh AI actually had a great supporting cast", it wasnt even considered great in 2001, matter of fact AI made the careers of guys like snow and mckie, who played worse basketball once they left the team.
I get it that pistons beat lakers and mavs beat the heat. but what I wanted to say with that example is that the template remains the same which is multiple good offensive players to win the title. Sixers did not have that, that's why they are in the same category as 07 cavs or 02 nets.
No superstar would have came close to winning title with that team if they swapped places with AI. No MJ, no Hakeem (who actually won with weak supporting cast), no Bron, no one.
AI was a selfish player but for that one year I give him a lot of credit, it was phenomenal, he had two 50+ games, and 4 40+ games, thats unbelievable.
And yes he didnt help enough in 2002, and teammates couldnt help him much either, he dealt with injuries in 2002 and it was a worse performance. And billy king was the GM of this team around that time, which says a lot about constructing a team also.
I wouldn't say he had a great supporting cast. But it's equally incorrect to say he had a horrible one. They were good enough for the time and better than the likes of Vince or T-Mac and actually pretty comparable to Tim (remember this is before Parker and Ginobli and Robinson was a role player). It's only talked about as being so bad because most people can only appreciate scoring 20 points. Defense, despite it's impact, is often ignored. You put a great defensive squad around a offensive superstar and you are giving him a shot. Obviously they could've been better but once again that goes for the majority of squads back then. That squad would be a 6-8 seed in today's league as opposed to sprinting to the number 1 seed.
He was great that year, just not as great as people try to prop him up as being. He was great but he also took a ridiculous number of shots to get those totals. Most good offensive players can get you 40 or 50 if you give them the greenlight to shoot 30+ times a night. He deserves credit for that year but this myth that he carried scrubs all by himself needs to stop. You can't carry a team when you are being carried on one end of the floor.