Are smaller states overrepresented in the Senate? And if so, what should be do about it?

acri1

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The Small-State Advantage in the United States Senate
The Constitution has always given states with small populations a lift, but the scale of the gap has grown in recent decades. Related Article »

These 62 senators represent about one-fourth of the people in the United States.

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So do these 6 senators.

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Overrepresentation in the Senate is among the reasons why the smallest states (and their local governments) received more federal aid per capita in 2010.

People
per senator Aid
per capita
Wyoming 290,000 $4,180
Vermont 310,000 3,270
North Dakota 350,000 3,220
Alaska 370,000 4,680
South Dakota 420,000 2,640
Delaware 460,000 3,700
Montana 500,000 2,840
Rhode Island 530,000 2,800
New Hampshire 660,000 1,790
Maine 660,000 2,700
Hawaii 700,000 1,850
Idaho 800,000 1,950
West Virginia 930,000 2,610
Nebraska 930,000 1,710
New Mexico 1,040,000 3,310
Nevada 1,380,000 1,340
People
per senator Aid
per capita
Utah 1,430,000 1,520
Kansas 1,440,000 1,750
Arkansas 1,470,000 2,200
Mississippi 1,490,000 2,900
Iowa 1,540,000 1,930
Connecticut 1,800,000 2,150
Oklahoma 1,910,000 2,140
Oregon 1,950,000 2,050
Kentucky 2,190,000 2,250
Louisiana 2,300,000 2,960
South Carolina 2,360,000 1,790
Alabama 2,410,000 1,800
Colorado 2,590,000 1,520
Minnesota 2,690,000 2,050
Wisconsin 2,860,000 1,880
People
per senator Aid
per capita
New York* 9,790,000 $3,170
Texas 13,030,000 1,740
California 19,020,000 1,790

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/11/us/politics/small-state-advantage.html
 

acri1

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Smaller States Find Outsize Clout Growing in Senate

The disproportionate power enjoyed in the Senate by small states is playing a growing role in the political dynamic on issues as varied as gun control, immigration and campaign finance.
By Adam Liptak


Big State, Small State
RUTLAND, Vt. — In the four years after the financial crisis struck, a great wave of federal stimulus money washed over Rutland County. It helped pay for bridges, roads, preschool programs, a community health center, buses and fire trucks, water mains and tanks, even a project to make sure fish could still swim down the river while a bridge was being rebuilt.

Just down Route 4, at the New York border, the landscape abruptly turns from spiffy to scruffy. Washington County, N.Y., which is home to about 60,000 people — just as Rutland is — saw only a quarter as much money.

“We didn’t receive a lot,” said Peter Aust, the president of the local chamber of commerce on the New York side. “We never saw any of the positive impact of the stimulus funds.”

Vermont’s 625,000 residents have two United States senators, and so do New York’s 19 million. That means that a Vermonter has 30 times the voting power in the Senate of a New Yorker just over the state line — the biggest inequality between two adjacent states. The nation’s largest gap, between Wyoming and California, is more than double that.

The difference in the fortunes of Rutland and Washington Counties reflects the growing disparity in their citizens’ voting power, and it is not an anomaly. The Constitution has always given residents of states with small populations a lift, but the size and importance of the gap has grown markedly in recent decades, in ways the framers probably never anticipated. It affects the political dynamic of issues as varied as gun control, immigration and campaign finance.

In response, lawmakers, lawyers and watchdog groups have begun pushing for change. A lawsuit to curb the small-state advantage in the Senate’s rules is moving through the courts. The Senate has already made modest changes to rules concerning the filibuster, which has particularly benefited senators from small states. And eight states and the District of Columbia have endorsed a proposal to reduce the chances that the small-state advantage in the Electoral College will allow a loser of the popular vote to win the presidency.

To be sure, some scholars and members of Congress view the small-state advantage as a vital part of the constitutional structure and say the growth of that advantage is no cause for worry. Others say it is an authentic but insoluble problem.

What is certain is that the power of the smaller states is large and growing. Political scientists call it a striking exception to the democratic principle of “one person, one vote.” Indeed, they say, the Senate may be the least democratic legislative chamber in any developed nation.


At left, the view toward Vermont from Washington County, N.Y., left. Vermont got much more federal stimulus money than larger states. “We never saw any of the positive impact of the stimulus funds,” said Peter Aust, top right, a chamber of commerce president for Washington County, N.Y. Bottom right, Rutland. Vt., has been a big recipient of federal aid, including for buses.
Behind the growth of the advantage is an increase in population gap between large and small states, with large states adding many more people than small ones in the last half-century. There is a widening demographic split, too, with the larger states becoming more urban and liberal, and the smaller ones remaining rural and conservative, which lends a new significance to the disparity in their political power.

The threat of the filibuster in the Senate, which has become far more common than in past decades, plays a role, too. Research by two political scientists, Lauren C. Bell and L. Marvin Overby, has found that small-state senators, often in leadership positions, have amplified their power by using the filibuster more often than their large-state counterparts.

Beyond influencing government spending, these shifts generally benefit conservative causes and hurt liberal ones. When small states block or shape legislation backed by senators representing a majority of Americans, most of the senators on the winning side tend to be Republicans, because Republicans disproportionately live in small states and Democrats, especially African-Americans and Latinos, are more likely to live in large states like California, New York, Florida and Illinois. Among the nation’s five smallest states, only Vermont tilts liberal, while Alaska, Wyoming and the Dakotas have each voted Republican in every presidential election since 1968.

Recent bills to overhaul the immigration system and increase disclosure of campaign spending have won the support of senators representing a majority of the population but have not yet passed. A sweeping climate bill, meant to raise the cost of carbon emissions, passed the House, where seats are allocated by population, but not the Senate.

Each of those bills is a major Democratic Party priority. Throughout his second term, President Obama is likely to be lining up with a majority of large-state Congress members on his biggest goals and against a majority of small-state lawmakers.

It is easiest to measure the small-state advantage in dollars. Over the past few years, as the federal government has spent hundreds of billions to respond to the financial crisis, it has done much more to assist the residents of small states than large ones. The top five per capita recipients of federal stimulus grants were states so small that they have only a single House member.

“From highway bills to homeland security,” said Sarah A. Binder, a political scientist at George Washington University, “small states make out like bandits.”

Here in Rutland, the federal government has spent $2,500 per person since early 2009, compared with $600 per person across the state border in Washington County.

As the money started arriving, Senator Bernard Sanders, the Vermont independent, took credit for having delivered a “hefty share of the national funding.” Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, a New York Democrat, vowed to fight for her state’s “fair share.”

As a matter of constitutional design, small states have punched above their weight politically for as long as the United States has existed. The founding of the country depended in part on the Great Compromise, which created a legislative chamber — the Senate — in which every state had the same political voice, regardless of population. The advantage small states enjoy in the Senate is echoed in the Electoral College, where each state is allocated votes not only for its House members (reflecting the state’s population) but also for its senators (a two-vote bonus).

No one expects the small-state advantage to disappear, given its constitutional roots. But its growing importance has caused some large-state policy makers and advocates for giving all citizens an equal voice in democracy to begin exploring ways to counteract it. Those pushing for change tend to be Democrats.

One plan, enacted into law by eight states and the District of Columbia, would effectively cancel the small states’ Electoral College edge. The nine jurisdictions have pledged to allocate their 132 electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote — if they can persuade states with 138 more votes to make the same commitment. (That would represent the bare majority of the 538 electoral votes needed for a presidential candidate to prevail.)

The states that have agreed to the arrangement range in size from Vermont to California, and they are dominated by Democrats. But support for changing the Electoral College cuts across party lines. In a recent Gallup Poll, 61 percent of Republicans, 63 percent of independents and 66 percent of Democrats said they favored abolishing the system and awarding the presidency to the winner of the popular vote.

In 2000, had electoral votes been allocated by population, without the two-vote bonuses, Al Gore would have prevailed over George W. Bush. Alexander Keyssar, a historian of democracy at Harvard, said he would not be surprised if another Republican candidate won the presidency while losing the popular vote in coming decades, given the structure of the Electoral College.

Critics of the outsize power of small states have also turned to the courts. In December, four House members and the advocacy group Common Cause filed an appeal in a lawsuit challenging the Senate’s filibuster rule on the ground that it “upsets the balance in the Great Compromise” that created the Senate.

The filibuster “has significantly increased the underrepresentation of people living in the most populous states,” the suit said. But for the rule, it said, the Dream Act, which would have given some immigrants who arrived illegally as children a path to legalization, and the Disclose Act, requiring greater reporting of political spending, would be law.
 

acri1

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A federal judge in Washington dismissed the suit, saying he was “powerless to address” what he acknowledged was an “important and controversial issue.” The judge instead sided with lawyers for the Senate, who said that the challengers lacked standing to sue and that the courts lacked power to rule on the internal workings of another branch of the government.

However these individual efforts fare, the basic disparity between large and small states is wired into the constitutional framework. Some scholars say that this is as it should be and that the advantages enjoyed by small states are necessary to prevent them from becoming a voiceless minority.

“Without it, wealth and power would tend to flow to the prosperous coasts and cities and away from less-populated rural areas,” said Stephen Macedo, a political scientist at Princeton.

Gary L. Gregg II, a political scientist who holds the Mitch McConnell Chair in Leadership at the University of Louisville, similarly argued that urban areas already have enough power, as the home of most major government agencies, news media organizations, companies and universities. “A simple, direct democracy will centralize all power,” he wrote recently, “in urban areas to the detriment of the rest of the nation.”

Others say the country needs to make changes to preserve its democratic vitality. They have called for an overhaul of the Constitution, as far-fetched an idea as that may be.

“The Senate constitutes a threat to the vitality of the American political system in the 21st century,” said Sanford Levinson, a law professor at the University of Texas, “and it warrants a constitutional convention to rectify it.”

Frances E. Lee, a political scientist at the University of Maryland, said the problem was as real as the solution elusive, adding that she and other scholars have tried without success to find a contemporary reason to exempt the Senate from the usual rules of granting citizens an equal voice in their government. “I can’t think of any way to justify it based on democratic principles,” Professor Lee said.

So the basic question I'm posing with this thread is this - Do you think that equal representation of the states in the Senate is fair to voters in more populous states? Is it fair that a voter in Vermont essentially has about 30 times more voting power than a voter in New York? And if not, what type of system would be fair?
 

theworldismine13

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hmmm no, it sounds like its just a ploy to get more liberals in congress

here is a good story, i remember reading a long time ago about how the primary system needed to change because it gave too much power to two white bread states but in reality if that system had been in place obama would have never become president, obama lost all the states with "minority" and "diverse" populations and won just about all the "white" states

moral of the story, dont follow liberals blindly
 

acri1

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hmmm no, it sounds like its just a ploy to get more liberals in congress

here is a good story, i remember reading a long time ago about how the primary system needed to change because it gave too much power to two white bread states but in reality if that system had been in place obama would have never become president, obama lost all the states with "minority" and "diverse" populations and won just about all the "white" states

moral of the story, dont follow liberals blindly

Does everything have to be a liberal/conservative issue with you?

So petty. :snoop:


I'd also suggest getting off the crack...we're talking about the Senate, not the electoral college. This has nothing to do with Obama. :snoop:
 

theworldismine13

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Does everything have to be a liberal/conservative issue with you?

So petty. :snoop:


I'd also suggest getting off the crack...we're talking about the Senate, not the electoral college. This has nothing to do with Obama. :snoop:

im not either a liberal or conservative, but this issue is obviously something that is being pushed by liberals, its not my problem if you arent able to peceive that

and i actually agree with the movement for the popular vote for president

the point of the story about obama is that the criticism of the senate system is similar to the criticism if iowa and NH being first
but in reality an unknown candidate like obama would have never been elected if small white bread states like iowa and NH werent first, its just a warning that the grass isnt necessarily greener on the other side
 

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im not either a liberal or conservative, but this issue is obviously something that is being pushed by liberals, its not my problem if you arent able to peceive that

and i actually agree with the movement for the popular vote for president

the point of the story about obama is that the criticism of the senate system is similar to the criticism if iowa and NH being first
but in reality an unknown candidate like obama would have never been elected if small white bread states like iowa and NH werent first, its just a warning that the grass isnt necessarily greener on the other side

Who the idea is being pushed by is irrelevant, what's relevant is whether the idea is good or not.

The question is whether or not it's fair for a state with 600,000 people to have the same number of Senators as a state with 18 million. If you think so, fine, but it's extremely small-minded to base your opinion on which party it benefits at the moment rather than whether it's actually a fair/balanced system. Personally I think it's unfair in that it means that white/rural voters generally have more voting power than everyone else, but I'd be interested in hearing actual arguments as to why that's not the case.
 

theworldismine13

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Who the idea is being pushed by is irrelevant, what's relevant is whether the idea is good or not.

The question is whether or not it's fair for a state with 600,000 people to have the same number of Senators as a state with 18 million. If you think so, fine, but it's extremely small-minded to base your opinion on which party it benefits at the moment rather than whether it's actually a fair/balanced system. Personally I think it's unfair in that it means that white/rural voters generally have more voting power than everyone else, but I'd be interested in hearing actual arguments as to why that's not the case.

my opinion is the current system is fine, i dont see any reason to mess with it and i think there are more important issues, it has nothing to do with who supports it, like i said i support getting rid if the electoral college, but i think the two tier system for congress is ok for now

there are historical reasons for the two tier system, the americans government is set up as a federation, so i think if you want to change the senate you should also get rid of the "federation", my argument is that i think the federation of states called the united states should remain the way it is, the senate is just a quirk of the federal system, its suppose to balance out power and i think it does do that, in that sense its fair

and again, the criticism of the IA and NH being first is that they give a lot of power to white rural voters, where you essentially had corn farmers and residents of small new england villages deciding who the leader of the world should be and city dwellers with their "diversity" that represent more of america had little voice

you are making a very similar argument that is why i brought it up

im just pointing out that if for example we would have switched to CA and NY first there is no way somebody like obama would have won, the reality is that CA and NY were full of "diverse" people like white liberals, asians and hispanics that were not tryna vote for a black person at the top of the ticket and cities controlled by machines that were going to make sure the most connected candidate won meanwhile white rural states embraced obama and where the backbone of his campaign, im not sure why but that is what happened

so basically im concerned that the grass isnt greener on the other side and i would argue that the current system is fair when you look at the reason for its existence (it was a constitutional compromise between little states and big states)
 
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acri1

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my opinion is the current system is fine, i dont see any reason to mess with it and i think there are more important issues, it has nothing to do with who supports it, like i said i support getting rid if the electoral college, but i think the two tier system for congress is ok for now

there are historical reasons for the two tier system, the americans government is set up as a federation, so i think if you want to change the senate you should also get rid of the "federation", my argument is that i think the federation of states called the united states should remain the way it is, the senate is just a quirk of the federal system, its suppose to balance out power and i think it does do that, in that sense its fair

and again, the criticism of the IA and NH being first is that they give a lot of power to white rural voters, where you essentially had corn farmers and residents of small new england villages deciding who the leader of the world should be and city dwellers with their "diversity" that represent more of america had little voice

you are making a very similar argument that is why i brought it up

im just pointing out that if for example we would have switched to CA and NY first there is no way somebody like obama would have won, the reality is that CA and NY were full of "diverse" people like white liberals, asians and hispanics that were not tryna vote for a black person at the top of the ticket and cities controlled by machines that were going to make sure the most connected candidate won meanwhile white rural states embraced obama and where the backbone of his campaign, im not sure why but that is what happened

so basically im concerned that the grass isnt greener on the other side and i would argue that the current system is fair when you look at the reason for its existence (it was a constitutional compromise between little states and big states)


Well, the two-senators-per-state thing was demanded by smaller states so that larger states wouldn't overwhelm them politically. The problem with that is that the population differences now are MUCH greater than they were then, so that system is significantly more anti-democratic than it was at the time. The disparity in voting power between states, at the time, might've been like 11-to-1 at max. Now it's easily six times that. At what point does "balancing out power" become "giving some voters way more power than others"?

And again, what might or might not have gotten Obama elected is irrelevant, the issue is what's fair.


That said, you shouldn't be under the impression that giving voters in small states power is necessarily beneficial to black people, or the country as a whole. If things weren't set up that way, slavery might have ended much sooner. Something like six or seven antislavery bills passed in the house in the 1800s (before the Civil War) and they all ended up dying in the Senate because sparsely populated southern states had a disproportionate amount of influence. Civil rights bills in the the mid-1900s were slow to pass for the same reason. So the idea that giving voters in rural states more voting power is somehow beneficial to black people is pretty unconvincing IMO, regardless of Obama.

But I digress, my base argument isn't even about picking a side, it's that it's undemocratic for some votes to count so much more than others. That would be my stance regardless of which political party might benefit from changing things. Fair is fair.
 
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