"Artist" that go in the studio with endless pockets/resources vs. independent artists

[Mac Casper]

negged for tryna promo this shyt, i aint even bout to listen

My point in action, this guy has to resort to promoting his music by posting links here

 

[DaveyDave]

Cats don't really go in the studio like that anymore tho. They don't need to go round spending $50-$100 an hour on a studio when they can use an m-box and record in pro tools. Cats been recording in bathrooms and closets for the longest. Most dope underground/indie producers have a decent set up as far as mics, mixing board and sound proofing so there's no much need to go to a studio if you don't have the money like that.

 

[Mac Casper]

Cats don't really go in the studio like that anymore tho. They don't need to go round spending $50-$100 an hour on a studio when they can use an m-box and record in pro tools. Cats been recording in bathrooms and closets for the longest. Most dope underground/indie producers have a decent set up as far as mics, mixing board and sound proofing so there's no much need to go to a studio if you don't have the money like that.

It's been said that Wayne travels with a portable studio set-up, I good recording can be facilitated anywhere but it's the engineers ability that is sought after, a lot of these home recorded projects sound

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

It's been said that Wayne travels with a portable studio set-up, I good recording can be facilitated anywhere but it's the engineers ability that is sought after, a lot of these home recorded projects sound

cause it's not just the engineering or none of that other shyt... its ALL of that other shyt.. yea wayne sets up in hotel... so did kanye.. juicy j recorded songs out right now in the damn shower


but guess what... their mic costs more money then another nikka's whole setup.. their equipment, computers, plug ins cost more and probably are some shyt most non signed rappers never even heard of

their engineer makes 100 an hour instead of $40 for the whole hour and the engineer is the nikka who rents the "studio".... and when they do go in studio.. it's those $300 an hour joints.

their producer don't have a soundclick.. it's not an mp3 file or a wav. it's about 25 wav files that need to be placed one by one. every instrument or riff has it's own large wav file

then what most people will never understand.. it's MIXING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND MASTERING


you mix down a track, level it to sound great. have the engineer spend 6 hours per song to get it perfect... you STILL have to take that song, along with your 15 other tracks, and have another person master it all together.. that'll be a few days.


so yes, they record in shytty places... or not in the studio... but trust me when i say, ain't nothing "regular" about the set up and the quality of work that goes into it




which leads me back into what i tell ANY artist.. if you don't have bread.. major or medium bread to finance all this shyt... good luck.. you are going nowhere unless you know somebody who is somebody

your sound will NEVER match the pros unless you have pro equipment and pro nikkas working on it

 

[tirademode]

Good thread .

I'd just like to take this time to say that the word "artist" can be pluralised to "artists" meaning more than one .

 

[Mac Casper]

cause it's not just the engineering or none of that other shyt... its ALL of that other shyt.. yea wayne sets up in hotel... so did kanye.. juicy j recorded songs out right now in the damn shower


but guess what... their mic costs more money then another nikka's whole setup.. their equipment, computers, plug ins cost more and probably are some shyt most non signed rappers never even heard of

their engineer makes 100 an hour instead of $40 for the whole hour and the engineer is the nikka who rents the "studio" and when they do go in studio.. it's those $300 an hour joints.

their producer don't have a soundclick.. it's not an mp3 file or a wav. it's about 25 wav files that need to be placed one by one. every instrument or riff has it's on large wav file

then what most people will never understand.. it's MIXING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND MASTERING


you mix down a track, level it to sound great. have the engineer spend 6 hours per song to get it perfect... you STILL have to take that song, along with your 15 other tracks, and have another person master it all together.. that'll be a few days.


so yes, they record in shytty places... or not in the studio... but trust me when i say, ain't nothing "regular" about the set up and the quality of work that goes into it




which leads me back into what i tell ANY artist.. if you don't have bread.. major or medium bread to finance all this shyt... good luck.. you are going nowhere unless you know somebody who is somebody

your sound will NEVER match the pros unless you have pro equipment and pro nikkas working on it

That's a good point you add there, these days people are ripping beats off YouTube or working with producers who value their brand at $10 a beat/3 for $25 type deals - they get a single track and bring it into the studio. I sell mixing and mastering services but I would never want to handle my own mixes, I'll provide input but as an artist, mixing the music isn't my job. Mixing is a CRAFT, there's a reason they got a phrase called "Arts and Crafts" they are two separate things.

I went to this one studio in San Francisco, downtown, right off Market St. - The engineer is advertising the place as a "mecca for independent hip-hop artists" - with the plethora of studios around here the rates are very competitive on the mid-level to low-end studios, so when I saw a $60 an hour rate I figured "This might be a good place",

I get down to the studio, with a flash drive full of tracked out .WAV files and the engineer (who's a female, who's graduated Berklee College of Music in Boston) looks at me like I have 3 heads. She's like "usually rappers come here with their tracks already mixed down, I mean I could do this for you but my ProTools isn't equipped to handle this many files, I'll have to do a couple mixes and bounce them down until we get one track . . It might take some extra time"

I'm looking at her like - this lady is talking to me like it's my first time in the studio and I'm completely unfamiliar with the process and apparently because so many artists are out there with such a lack of standard for the audio quality of the music they put out this lady is running her studio at $60 an hour and isn't even familiar with the process of working with tracked out production.

She's trying to tell me I can do the vocals there . . at $180 for 3 hour (minimum) and I can take the vocal files to another studio to do the final mix :smughov:

It takes me 30 minutes to lay down my vocals, so are we suppose to just fast forward two hours and act like you were doing your job? This is your job detail lady! I could go to a $100 an hour studio, lay down my vocals on a $10,000 mic, which is run through $20,000 worth of equipment before reaching a $500,000 mixing board which would add sonic signatures typically reserved for the music of major label artists

So to summarize: due to a technical limitation the studio didn't have the capability of working with tracked out files, I have no idea how a studio in the bracket of $60 an hour wouldn't be set-up for something that should be the norm but apparently it's become such a staple of hip-hop for artists to come in with an mp3 that this place didn't even have the ability to address the such a standard need.

She would've had to import them to another system and then bounce a rough mix down, for me to record the vocals to, I don't see recording vocals to single track as mixing and definitely not a display of proficiency in the craft to warrant a $60 an hour rate, beyond that - leaving a studio at that rate with an unfinished project just doesn't seem reasonable after all of the time that would've went into it there. She did seem knowledgeable and had a lot of expertise with sound, it just seems like she's selling herself short if she's not even open to working with a tracked out project. We actually hung out for almost as long as the session was scheduled for and just discussed sound and publishing it's baffling that she was so shocked unprepared to see a tracked out file. I was very interested in working with her because I saw she had a background at Berklee School of Music in Boston but it seems like her selling point is the acoustically sound vocal booth.

My first sessions started out at $55 an hour, I was going to the studio with tracked out production from one of my producers. Later I realize that the engineer I'm working with is an amazing producer in his own right with multiple Platinum credits, major placements with MLB baseball teams and news networks, etc. Needless to say I wish it didn't take me months to realize that I would be getting more bang for my buck with him doing the production in-house. My producer at the time, although schooled in musical theory and very innovative, was coming up with some completely abstract, fourth dimensional type productions that sound like the sound kit was robbed from an Atari or Super Nintendo. I was young and just doing what I can with them, but there came a point when I learned that these productions were leading my songwriting down desolate roads

^ If I die and go to a positive purgatory (the place your soul goes if you're on a waiting list before getting to heaven, for not being fully worthy yet) - I would be stuck in that studio with that engineer, probably one of the most musiclaly enriching times of my life and truly the reason I'm able to be at this point 3 years/3,000 miles later and call myself an artist. If I had started in the wrong studio it would've been unlikely that I ever made the material that would stimulate me to keep going. However, I know that this is what I live for and I would never stop

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

That's a good point you add there, these days people are ripping beats off YouTube or working with producers who value their brand at $10 a beat/3 for $25 type deals - they get a single track and bring it into the studio. I sell mixing and mastering services but I would never want to handle my own mixes, I'll provide input but as an artist, mixing the music isn't my job. Mixing is a CRAFT, there's a reason they got a phrase called "Arts and Crafts" they are two separate things.

I went to this one studio in San Francisco, downtown, right off Market St. - The engineer is advertising the place as a "mecca for independent hip-hop artists" - with the plethora of studios around here the rates are very competitive on the mid-level to low-end studios, so when I saw a $60 an hour rate I figured "This might be a good place",

I get down to the studio, with a flash drive full of tracked out .WAV files and the engineer (who's a female, who's graduated Berklee College of Music in Boston) looks at me like I have 3 heads. She's like "usually rappers come here with their tracks already mixed down, I mean I could do this for you but my ProTools isn't equipped to handle this many files, I'll have to do a couple mixes and bounce them down until we get one track . . It might take some extra time"

I'm looking at her like - this lady is talking to me like it's my first time in the studio and I'm completely unfamiliar with the process and apparently because so many artists are out there with such a lack of standard for the audio quality of the music they put out this lady is running her studio at $60 an hour and isn't even familiar with the process of working with tracked out production.

She's trying to tell me I can do the vocals there . . at $180 for 3 hour (minimum) and I can take the vocal files to another studio to do the final mix :smughov:

It takes me 30 minutes to lay down my vocals, so are we suppose to just fast forward two hours and act like you were doing your job? This is your job detail lady! I could go to a $100 an hour studio, lay down my vocals on a $10,000 mic, which is run through $20,000 worth of equipment before reaching a $500,000 mixing board which would add sonic signatures typically reserved for the music of major label artists

So to summarize: due to a technical limitation the studio didn't have the capability of working with tracked out files, I have no idea how a studio in the bracket of $60 an hour wouldn't be set-up for something that should be the norm but apparently it's become such a staple of hip-hop for artists to come in with an mp3 that this place didn't even have the ability to address the such a standard need.

She would've had to import them to another system and then bounce a rough mix down, for me to record the vocals to, I don't see recording vocals to single track as mixing and definitely not a display of proficiency in the craft to warrant a $60 an hour rate, beyond that - leaving a studio at that rate with an unfinished project just doesn't seem reasonable after all of the time that would've went into it there. She did seem knowledgeable and had a lot of expertise with sound, it just seems like she's selling herself short if she's not even open to working with a tracked out project. We actually hung out for almost as long as the session was scheduled for and just discussed sound and publishing it's baffling that she was so shocked unprepared to see a tracked out file. I was very interested in working with her because I saw she had a background at Berklee School of Music in Boston but it seems like her selling point is the acoustically sound vocal booth.

My first sessions started out at $55 an hour, I was going to the studio with tracked out production from one of my producers. Later I realize that the engineer I'm working with is an amazing producer in his own right with multiple Platinum credits, major placements with MLB baseball teams and news networks, etc. Needless to say I wish it didn't take me months to realize that I would be getting more bang for my buck with him doing the production in-house. My producer at the time, although schooled in musical theory and very innovative, was coming up with some completely abstract, fourth dimensional type productions that sound like the sound kit was robbed from an Atari or Super Nintendo. I was young and just doing what I can with them, but there came a point when I learned that these productions were leading my songwriting down desolate roads

^ If I die and go to a positive purgatory (the place your soul goes if you're on a waiting list before getting to heaven, for not being fully worthy yet) - I would be stuck in that studio with that engineer, probably one of the most musiclaly enriching times of my life and truly the reason I'm able to be at this point 3 years/3,000 miles later and call myself an artist. If I had started in the wrong studio it would've been unlikely that I ever made the material that would stimulate me to keep going. However, I know that this is what I live for and I would never stop

that's a great story homie for real. i can remember so many "engineer" fukk ups i've gone through

the times i've hit the studio. shyt looks like something out of a movie. only to find out my "engineer" is a rapper. and he only does rap tracks cause the other guy who owns the studio is the real, classical and rock trained engineer.

so this bum proceed to (and i believe it) fukk up my track on purpose when it sounds hot.. this nikka on the phone arguing with his girl, leaving in and out in the middle of my recording.. trying to rush ME when the time is up, even tho he spent the last hour on the phone so he couldn't finish it

then he finally hands it to me... my voice is off beat.. he wasn't even paying attention.. just pushing some preset buttons on some sort of plugins he already set up









now take that and go hear a kendrick album.. how long do you think they had to work on all those fades, voice changes, autotune, pitch changes... a real producer takes a chopped up beat and freaks this, deletes that, adds this, calls in a guitar player to redo this sample.. all while telling you what to do with your voice, telling you to redo this verse, add in that ad lib... its the difference between a beat maker and a producer... and the producer is STILL not the engineer.. who is STILL not the mastering guy


your story reminds me of my boy tho.. he came into a lot of money.. he was gonna go to the best studio, buy the best beats.. he goes straight to soundclick... pays one of them nikkas hundreds for a full beat...

he hits me like "how do i make this into an mp3"

 

[L&HH]

@Wally Russell how many vocal tracks you get done in that 30 min. Im interested cause Im wondering how much per song it costs to record

Also, I have never stepped in a studio myself and Im shocked that in 2013 a studio that's charging ppl money is 2-tracking mixes

 

[tirademode]

The worst thing about some of these engineers . Is that although they are experienced . The day in day out , 8-12 hour stints of being bombarded by sound means that their ears can bottom the fukk out in the middle of a session.

I remember years back recording with a guy .

Around 2pm we're listening to the song like :
3pm we're like:

Around 5pm something changed :

6pm :

By 10pm : The song was completely ruined man.


I think son went deaf midway through.

 

[RTF]

Indie artists have the edge musically in my opinion. They feed the streets and the "every-day" MF's -- You can hear it in the music they put out. exp: Wiz before the fame, compared to now; Kendrick before GKMC; shyt, Drake before YM. Now, it takes little talent to make it. fukk nikkas like Chief Keef have hand outs; thus they create trash products. Another thing is labels take away artists' creative ability to maintain the image of the label. They have no say-so in the processes and even the songs that they make.

They really, really don't.

Samples? Bushes.

Specific session musicians? Bushes.

K.Dot and Drake where barely independent. But anyways, K.dot for example took the production to another level due to that extra budget.


Chief Keef probably needed a major label the least. His whole sound and aesthetic is anti-Hollywood, rough and uncut. The Gucci features are dope but he probably could've got those indie. 12 hard, gritty Yuong C beats and he's nice.

 

[RTF]

If the shoe fits

but for real this thread is just for the acknowledgement of the perseverance that an indie artists has to through before their music is even heard

Ye is fortunate that he always had money and talented people around him.

College Dropout is him on the beats - John Legend on keys - Miri Ben Ari on strings. Rhymefest with the pen.

 

[Mac Casper]

that's a great story homie for real. i can remember so many "engineer" fukk ups i've gone through

the times i've hit the studio. shyt looks like something out of a movie. only to find out my "engineer" is a rapper. and he only does rap tracks cause the other guy who owns the studio is the real, classical and rock trained engineer.

so this bum proceed to (and i believe it) fukk up my track on purpose when it sounds hot.. this nikka on the phone arguing with his girl, leaving in and out in the middle of my recording.. trying to rush ME when the time is up, even tho he spent the last hour on the phone so he couldn't finish it

then he finally hands it to me... my voice is off beat.. he wasn't even paying attention.. just pushing some preset buttons on some sort of plugins he already set up









now take that and go hear a kendrick album.. how long do you think they had to work on all those fades, voice changes, autotune, pitch changes... a real producer takes a chopped up beat and freaks this, deletes that, adds this, calls in a guitar player to redo this sample.. all while telling you what to do with your voice, telling you to redo this verse, add in that ad lib... its the difference between a beat maker and a producer... and the producer is STILL not the engineer.. who is STILL not the mastering guy


your story reminds me of my boy tho.. he came into a lot of money.. he was gonna go to the best studio, buy the best beats.. he goes straight to soundclick... pays one of them nikkas hundreds for a full beat...

he hits me like "how do i make this into an mp3"

That's another factor, the independent artist is unlikely to have a REAL producer. They might have some dedicated beat makers who expect production credit but a real producer is in the studio with the artist going about every aspect that puts the song together. Essentially like a director.

I would never work with a "Rapper" engineer . . to let my new ideas unfold before the eyes of another artist in the same field as me? He's going to see how I go about my process? Hell nahhh - plus you know all rappers be looking at other rappers like prolly wishing you get hit by a bus the second you walk out the place

When you're paying someone's work rate there's a certain level of professionalism you have to expect from them, when you're in the studio you're paying these guys wages making you the boss. Would you pick up a phone and call your girl while your boss is working with you on your project? You've gotta have studio generalship,

Like a boxer has ring generalship or a quarterback has field generalship? That means when you're in your place of work you have a mastery of the terrain.

Also if you can, find yourself a world-class studio - go in for a consultation, ask them about who their studio engineer is - not only what the experience he has is but how long has he been working in this studio. Someone can have two decades of experience and yet be completely inept when it comes to a new studio, he might be completely unfamiliar with the set-up. Be a consumer, with the advent of home recording these places are dying for your business.

After applying a reasonable judgement of character, book 2 hours at one of these studios - see if they don't treat you with respect. Working with a great engineer has two benefits, 1. your music is going to sound great 2. if you're able to absorb the expertise you'll find yourself being more competent in other studios, you'll be telling the engineer how you want stuff done and he'll be learning from you

The worst thing about some of these engineers . Is that although they are experienced . The day in day out , 8-12 hour stints of being bombarded by sound means that their ears can bottom the fukk out in the middle of a session.

I remember years back recording with a guy .

Around 2pm we're listening to the song like :
3pm we're like:

Around 5pm something changed :

6pm :

By 10pm : The song was completely ruined man.


I think son went deaf midway through.

They have to know you're holding them to a standard. I wouldn't recommend anyone to have their first encounter with an engineer be an 8 hour session, before committing to a full day you should try them out for two hours to see how they work. Ear fatigue is a real thing. I remember Quincy Jones talking about the making of Thriller in which engineers were carried out on stretchers,


When he's working with your sound, you're in control. He's the engineer, not the producer - his job is to let you lead him to your desired sound. Next time treat it like a car salesman trying to sell you a bunch of extra coats for your car, scratch proof, rain proof, bird sh!t proof, sun proof. They'll sell you whatever they can and unfortunately there are even some studio engineers out their who subscribe to the theory of, it doesn't matter how much time you're with them for or how often you come back - the more they can slow you down the longer it'll take for you to get all your ideas out. Remember that Death Row intro on one of the Lady of Rage songs? It might've been on Above the Rim - if a major label artists feels like her time is being taken advantage of imagine what they do to the little guy. Implement a good judgement of character.

After a certain amount of time he just didn't know what to do, that's when you've got to move on to the next song

@Wally Russell how many vocal tracks you get done in that 30 min. Im interested cause Im wondering how much per song it costs to record

Also, I have never stepped in a studio myself and Im shocked that in 2013 a studio that's charging ppl money is 2-tracking mixes

4-8, depending on the need for the track

Sometimes I record the whole song through (I call this a "live" recording) and other times I do it separate by the structure, verse by verse, the chorus. When you record the whole song through the idea is to capture the magic of a performance of it, when you do it separately it can be clinical and you won't be capturing that magic - each song will have it's own needs, you don't want to zap your energy recording it over and over again - so if it's not possible to do the whole song through opt for doing each part separately, I say the magic will happen either between the first and the second take - you've gotta be a professional, conscious of your energy levels and you should be able to adjust on a dime - if you want to take this seriously it's no longer about some magical moment called "inspiration" - that's sucka sh!t - you shouldn't need a bottle of Hennessy, 3 lines of coke and some blunt smoke to do your job if you're a professional

I usually record a first take,

- a double over the first take
- delete the first take, and double over the double
- then I apply 1-2 takes of ad-libs and some extra magic on the chorus

Then I'm out the booth and we're mixing

 

[Mr Uncle Leroy]

Example A - The Independent Recording Artist -

Writes the record. They finance the studio time usually ranging between $40 an hour to upwards of $80 an hour - sometimes $20 an hour or $100 an hour. Finds the production/producer or goes to the studio and pays a producer by the hour to create their desired sound. Must finance the release of the project and promotion of it. Budget is tight so the record is cut in 2-4 hours, no room for mistakes

Example B - Let's use Diddy as an example

Hires a ghostwriter for pennies on the dollar. Studio expenses paid for by the label budget. Hires a producer to work with world-class session players. Sits in the studio with arms folded :smughov: until the desired sound is achieved. Spends 8-16 hours cutting the record, maybe multiple session days. Has time to perfect every sound and experiment endlessly. Music is put out with a comprehensive marketing plan, major promotional budget financed by the label. All success is equated to the artist.


This has been a Wally Russell Production :mcmuffin:

Example A is cool too.

What is the independent version of Example B because thats a tried and true successful model.

How does the indie artist work and efforts translate into record sales and money?

 

[Mac Casper]

Example A is cool too.

What is the independent version of Example B because thats a tried and true successful model.

How does the indie artist work and efforts translate into record sales and money?

It usually doesn't happen like that for the indie artist, you're either coming out of pocket for it or you can try to recruit people who will do it for the "opportunity", but when you're not paying people it's hard to hold them to a standard of accountability for their work.

Making money off your music independently is a process much alike any other entrepreneurship endeavor, if that's what you've got your mind set to and you need some help shoot me a PM

 

[spliz]

Naw, not even close..I'm better than both them nikkas anyway..

see here: https://soundcloud.com/booniemayfield/pass-the-offering-feat-jordan

Oh shyt u did a track wit Boon Doc?..that's official..