Assemble a starting 5 that can defeat this lineup.

[Propaganda]

i'd go with something like:

steph
kahwi
durant
kg
admiral

in short, that's a very cohesive and balanced team offensively with plenty of spacing/shooting and a ungodly defense with insane length, mobility, rebounding, whatever.

i kind of wavered on having the two bigs but i think it works.

 

[Imyremeshaw]

Not enough shooting in any of these lineups. You're not going to beat them any other way.

I disagree, your assessment is what's wrong with the NBA now with everybody trying to be the Warriors, outside of Jordan and lebron on hot streak how is my lineup worst shooting wise? I'll put my lineup against lineup all time, Michael Ray was decent streaky shooter on the same level as Lebron.

 

[Shadow King]

You're not going to beat a Magic/Kobe/MJ/LeBron/Shaq lineup trading 2s, no matter what "shot creation, perimeter defense" combination you think you might have. The only way to win is to aim to maximize production through the possessions you're going to get, and you can only do that by taking high-volume 3s, which is why you need shooting from 1-3/4.

You need players like Curry, Allen and/or Reggie (and Durant) who can hit from behind the arc at 40%+ on high-volume, which would force that team to have to make 60+% of their 2-pt shots. It's the only way.

A Curry-Allen/Miller backcourt is getting cooked defensively (especially if you try Curry-Allen-Miller all together at 1-3) while we're assuming a trio of Jordan-Kobe-Bron can't hold them to lower than expected percentages from 2 and/or 3. We're also assuming the OP dream team won't be getting these guys in foul trouble and eating from the free-throw line also.

Can Curry-Allen-Miller/KD go 12/30 from 3? Of course.
Do I think they are doing that 4x out or 7 on Bron-Kobe-MJ while trying to contain Bron-Kobe-MJ and not consistently getting in foul trouble? No.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I disagree, your assessment is what's wrong with the NBA now with everybody trying to be the Warriors,

It's wrong to emulate the greatest offensive system of all-time, by maximizing points per possession?

outside of Jordan and lebron on hot streak how is my lineup worst shooting wise? I'll put my lineup against lineup all time, Michael Ray was decent streaky shooter on the same level as Lebron.

But see, that's the problem, you don't want to have a lineup that's equal in shooting-ability, you want to have a lineup that can shoot lights-out, because you're not going to be able to trade 2s with 2s against the likes of MJ, LeBron and Kobe, and expect to win, it just isn't practical. As I said above, if you've got a team that can hit high-volume 3s at 40%, then the opposition will need to hit 2-pt shots at 60+% to keep up.

 

[Rigby.]

Steph
Klay
KD
Draymond
Boogie

 

[Imyremeshaw]

Just put a scheme in place that minimizes ball movement, and forces long 2s, and just let both of them jack up as many as their egos will let them; on the other end, put Magic and Shaq in endless PnRs and let it rain from behind the arc.

It's wrong to emulate the greatest offensive system of all-time, by maximizing points per possession?



But see, that's the problem, you don't want to have a lineup that's equal in shooting-ability, you want to have a lineup that can shoot lights-out, because you're not going to be able to trade 2s with 2s against the likes of MJ, LeBron and Kobe, and expect to win, it just isn't practical. As I said above, if you've got a team that can hit high-volume 3s at 40%, then the opposition will need to hit 2-pt shots at 60+% to keep up.

I disagree wholeheartedly, I'm sorry you got me on analytics game, I'm not gonna act like I can keep up with point per possession and everything you got me on that bro I'm all about the eye test, either way you slice up the line ups I presented, defense- interior/perimeter, teamwork, decent shooting, there's nothing there OPs team does better than my lineup other than name recognition......

As a matter of fact, I think my lineup has the greatest unselfishness with the highest ability of individual player to go off which is what you need to beat the OPs team.....

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that....

EVERY PLAYER IN THAT LINE UP
IS TOO PHYSICAL
FOR WHO EVER TRIES TO GUARD THEM
AND THEYRE ALL GOOD PASSERS.



​

The issue is who is taking the shots? And what kind of shots are they going to take?

At the end, the only way any team ever wins a basketball game is by averaging more points per possession than the other team. You HAVE to do that to win the game.

MJ's best TS% is 61% in 1989
Shaq's best TS% is 61% in 1994
Kobe's best TS% is 58% in 2007

Are those the three guys taking the most shots for the OP's team? I have a hard time imagining them deferring. Magic is definitely gonna be last on the totem pole, and LeBron's 65% TS% (2014) is nice but I just don't see MJ/Kobe/Shaq letting LeBron be the undisputed #1 option.

Now look at this numbers:

Steph 68% TS% in 2018 (and 67% in 2016)
Durant 65% TS% in 2013 and 2017
Klay 60% TS% in 2016 and 2018


That's a BIG step ahead of the first group. The issue is that 3 is more than 2. OP's main scorers just aren't that efficient, and if the other team has a bunch of shooters laying waste to the three-point line, they're going to average more points. A team is at its ideal position when the most efficient players are taking the most shots.

A Curry-Allen/Miller backcourt is getting cooked defensively (especially if you try Curry-Allen-Miller all together at 1-3) while we're assuming a trio of Jordan-Kobe-Bron can't hold them to lower than expected percentages from 2 and/or 3. We're also assuming the OP dream team won't be getting these guys in foul trouble and eating from the free-throw line also.

Can Curry-Allen-KD go 12/30 from 3? Of course.
Do I think they are doing that 4x out or 7 on Bron-Kobe-MJ while trying to contain Bron-Kobe-MJ and not consistently getting in foul trouble? No.

I agree with what you say on a weak backcourt getting cooked, which is why you need a Klay or a Kawhi back there.

But a Curry-Klay-Scottie-Durant-Hakeem defense ain't getting cooked (and you could slot Kawhi into any of those places if you like him more). The only defensive weakness is Curry, and like I said you put him on Kobe because you WANT Kobe to be shooting high volume since it's almost impossible for him to be that efficient, especially if you're helping out down low.

And don't front like the OP team doesn't have its own defensive hole, with Magic out there getting targeted on switches left and right.

You're talking like the three best shooters going 12/30 from three would be a rare thing that would happen less than half the time. Just an average Steph/Klay playoff game is 9/20 or better from three. That's like making damn near 70% from the field. An MJ/Kobe-led team ain't going to be shooting 60-70%, so how do you keep up with that if you don't have shooters yourself?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

A Curry-Allen/Miller backcourt is getting cooked defensively (especially if you try Curry-Allen-Miller all together at 1-3)

An all-time great defensive anchor, who can defend every position [DRob], with a specialized scheme that forces long 2s (I'm assuming zone defense is in play here), will negate A LOT of their defensive struggles - especially since Allen and Reggie have the conditioning to chase around Kobe and MJ, and provide some resistance. Curry can just play off Magic and be a nuisance in the passing lanes.

What scheme and defensive anchor does the opposition have to stop Curry-Allen-Miller(or Klay)-Durant from playing behind the arc?

I'd much rather live with the defensive [inabilities] of that lineup, than put forward a lineup with a combination of "shot creation/defense" that can't match MJ, Lebron and Kobe by simply trading 2s - they're three of the greatest 2-pt scorers in history, no other perimeter combination can match them in that department - that's why you need to counter with 3s. At the very least it gives you a fighting chance.

while we're assuming a trio of Jordan-Kobe-Bron can't hold them to lower than expected percentages from 2 and/or 3..

Curry, Allen*, Reggie* (*or Klay), and Durant would kill that team from behind the arc - there's no hope in hell Jordan-Kobe-Bron would be able to keep them from shooting at their typical rates, or even better. They wouldn't be able to double-team them, and they wouldn't be able to chase them around the halfcourt all game long (just think of all the chaos they'd create by running around, endlessly, parlayed with their respective shooting abilities), not to mention they'd need to pick up the defensive slack left by Magic, and Shaq being a liability defending on the perimeter.

Run PnR (DRob + Curry or Allen, or Durant) over and over and over until Shaq can't even walk up the floor anymore.

We're also assuming the OP dream team won't be getting these guys in foul trouble and eating from the free-throw line also.

It's 5v5, so they can't get into foul trouble. If they need to stop the "OP Dream team" from maximizing their runs/momentum, that can just utilize Hack-A-Shaq.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

i'd go with something like:

steph
kahwi
durant
kg
admiral

in short, that's a very cohesive and balanced team offensively with plenty of spacing/shooting and a ungodly defense with insane length, mobility, rebounding, whatever.

i kind of wavered on having the two bigs but i think it works.

I actually like your lineup too. I'm biased towards Hakeem, but either Dream or The Admiral can be there at the 5. Either Kawhi or Klay can be there at the 2. I went with Scottie at the 3 because I wanted a second ballhandler and a versatile defender, but as the OP's team is gonna be so focused on making 2's, I like your idea of having KG down there alongside a mobile center just to really shut down that rim as much as possible. Durant/KG/Robinson is just disgusting rim protection. I wavered on including Duncan on my team, interesting to think about whether he could be an option in either KG's spot or Robinson's.

Actually, fukk, coli gonna hate me for this but since you don't need any volume offense from him you could totally get away with Draymond in that 4 spot too.

 

[CHICAGO]

The issue is who is taking the shots? And what kind of shots are they going to take?

At the end, the only way any team ever wins a basketball game is by averaging more points per possession than the other team. You HAVE to do that to win the game.

MJ's best TS% is 61% in 1989
Shaq's best TS% is 61% in 1994
Kobe's best TS% is 58% in 2007

Are those the three guys taking the most shots for the OP's team? I have a hard time imagining them deferring. Magic is definitely gonna be last on the totem pole, and LeBron's 65% TS% (2014) is nice but I just don't see MJ/Kobe/Shaq letting LeBron be the undisputed #1 option.

Now look at this numbers:

Steph 68% TS% in 2018 (and 67% in 2016)
Durant 65% TS% in 2013 and 2017
Klay 60% TS% in 2016 and 2018


That's a BIG step ahead of the first group. The issue is that 3 is more than 2. OP's main scorers just aren't that efficient, and if the other team has a bunch of shooters laying waste to the three-point line, they're going to average more points. A team is at its ideal position when the most efficient players are taking the most shots.






I agree with what you say on a weak backcourt getting cooked, which is why you need a Klay or a Kawhi back there.

But a Curry-Klay-Scottie-Durant-Hakeem defense ain't getting cooked (and you could slot Kawhi into any of those places if you like him more). The only defensive weakness is Curry, and like I said you put him on Kobe because you WANT Kobe to be shooting high volume since it's almost impossible for him to be that efficient, especially if you're helping out down low.

And don't front like the OP team doesn't have its own defensive hole, with Magic out there getting targeted on switches left and right.

You're talking like the three best shooters going 12/30 from three would be a rare thing that would happen less than half the time. Just an average Steph/Klay playoff game is 9/20 or better from three. That's like making damn near 70% from the field. An MJ/Kobe-led team ain't going to be shooting 60-70%, so how do you keep up with that if you don't have shooters yourself?

THOSE 3 ARENT SHOOTING THOSE PERCENTAGES
AGAINST PEAK MJ, KOBE, BRON.

DONT QUOTE ME ANYMORE.




​

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Plus, I don't see why dudes are acting like Allen would get "cooked" on defense, when we've already seen him hold his own against Kobe -

 

[Professor Emeritus]

THOSE 3 ARENT SHOOTING THOSE PERCENTAGES
AGAINST PEAK MJ, KOBE, BRON.

DONT QUOTE ME ANYMORE.




​

I don't take orders from mods who type in pink all-caps with emojis.

MJ almost never faced an elite three-point shooter in the playoffs. The one time I can think that he was really tested, Reggie shot 44% from three on him for the series. What other great three-point shooters did MJ really ever have to face like that?

Kobe isn't going to lock up Steph or Klay like that, don't be playing. Ray Allen set the finals volume record for threes against Kobe with 22 threes on 52% 3pt shooting in the 2008 Finals. Bruce Bowen was a CAREER 53% three-point shooter against Kobe in the playoffs. Raja Bell was a CAREER 45% three-point shooter against Kobe in the playoffs. Steve Smith was a CAREER 46% three-point shooter against Kobe in the playoffs. Rip Hamilton and Chancey ripped up the Lakers for 40% 3pt and 47% 3pt in the 2004 Finals. You can go all the way back to 2000, when Reggie made 38% of his threes and Jalen Rose made 50% of his against the Lakers in the Finals. EVERY TIME Kobe faced a strong three-point shooter in the playoffs they were able to tee off on him.

And LeBron a great defender but he ain't locking up a tall shooter like Durant. Durant is lifetime 43% from three-point range against LeBron in the playoffs.


Damn man, I was just shooting for 40% from three from those three guys, but 43-45% might be more likely now that you've made me focus on the actual receipts. Steph and Klay just need a sliver of daylight to be open, and Durant shooting from 7' in the air is basically a cheat code. No one is locking the three of them up, and your specific evidence that MJ/Kobe/LeBron lock up three-point shooters just got destroyed.

 

[Shadow King]

The issue is who is taking the shots? And what kind of shots are they going to take?

At the end, the only way any team ever wins a basketball game is by averaging more points per possession than the other team. You HAVE to do that to win the game.

MJ's best TS% is 61% in 1989
Shaq's best TS% is 61% in 1994
Kobe's best TS% is 58% in 2007

Are those the three guys taking the most shots for the OP's team? I have a hard time imagining them deferring. Magic is definitely gonna be last on the totem pole, and LeBron's 65% TS% (2014) is nice but I just don't see MJ/Kobe/Shaq letting LeBron be the undisputed #1 option.

Now look at this numbers:

Steph 68% TS% in 2018 (and 67% in 2016)
Durant 65% TS% in 2013 and 2017
Klay 60% TS% in 2016 and 2018


That's a BIG step ahead of the first group. The issue is that 3 is more than 2. OP's main scorers just aren't that efficient, and if the other team has a bunch of shooters laying waste to the three-point line, they're going to average more points. A team is at its ideal position when the most efficient players are taking the most shots.






I agree with what you say on a weak backcourt getting cooked, which is why you need a Klay or a Kawhi back there.

But a Curry-Klay-Scottie-Durant-Hakeem defense ain't getting cooked (and you could slot Kawhi into any of those places if you like him more). The only defensive weakness is Curry, and like I said you put him on Kobe because you WANT Kobe to be shooting high volume since it's almost impossible for him to be that efficient, especially if you're helping out down low.

And don't front like the OP team doesn't have its own defensive hole, with Magic out there getting targeted on switches left and right.

You're talking like the three best shooters going 12/30 from three would be a rare thing that would happen less than half the time. Just an average Steph/Klay playoff game is 9/20 or better from three. That's like making damn near 70% from the field. An MJ/Kobe-led team ain't going to be shooting 60-70%, so how do you keep up with that if you don't have shooters yourself?

Your lineup with Klay or Kawhi isn't weak defensively. Gil wanted a perimeter trio of Curry-Allen-Miller; that lineup would damn near allow MJ-Kobe-Bron to shoot 60%, and even if they shot 50% they'd be making up for it at the stripe. I think Kobe would be alright with Curry on him if he posts him up regularly.

We know Magic is weak defensively...same way he'd be targeted for switches, I'm sure the other team can target Curry for switches to let Magic post him.

Those shooters haven't been guarded by Jordan, one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, Bron, one of the most versatile defenders of all-time, and Kobe, a great defender when locked in, on the same team, while having to turn around and guard all 3 of those all-time scorers. I'm not saying it's rare, but just assuming the Bron-Kobe-MJ trio they're facing can't stifle their percentages is stretching it, especially when we both know Curry and Klay every year face teams that feature an injured guard (typically very good defenders), at least in a series. In some one-off pickup game of the gods type of deal, sure.

I'd take Kawhi over Klay since I trust him to create his own shot more.

An all-time great defensive anchor, who can defend every position [DRob], with a specialized scheme that forces long 2s (I'm assuming zone defense is in play here), will negate A LOT of their defensive struggles - especially since Allen and Reggie have the conditioning to chase around Kobe and MJ, and provide some resistance. Curry can just play off Magic and be a nuisance in the passing lanes.

What scheme and defensive anchor does the opposition have to stop Curry-Allen-Miller(or Klay)-Durant from playing behind the arc?

I'd much rather live with the defensive [inabilities] of that lineup, than put forward a lineup with a combination of "shot creation/defense" that can't match MJ, Lebron and Kobe by simply trading 2s - they're three of the greatest 2-pt scorers in history, no other perimeter combination can match them in that department - that's why you need to counter with 3s. At the very least it gives you a fighting chance.

Curry, Allen*, Reggie* (*or Klay), and Durant would kill that team from behind the arc - there's no hope in hell Jordan-Kobe-Bron would be able to keep them from shooting at their typical rates, or even better. They wouldn't be able to double-team them, and they wouldn't be able to chase them around the halfcourt all game long, not to mention they'd need to pick up the defensive slack left by Magic, and Shaq being a liability defending on the perimeter.

Run PnR (DRob + Curry or Allen, or Durant) over and over and over until Shaq can't even run up the floor anymore - that'll have more success than

It's 5v5, so they can't get into foul trouble. If they need to stop the "OP Dream team's" from maximizing their runs/momentum, that can just utilize Hack-A-Shaq.

D-Rob is not covering enough defensive ground to make up for all 3 of those players not being able to contain Jordan Kobe and Bron. Your team cannot really double anyone either especially if move the ball and cut they will feast on drop offs and baseline dunks all day and shoot the 60% you say they need. As far as leaving them open hoping they shoot, Kobe had poor shot selection but teams knew better than leaving him open. Bron became very good catch and catch and shoot 3s and could get plenty.of those on this team. With a defensive 1-3 as weak as yours the OP team isn't struggling in any manner, D-Rob or not.

Peak Jordan Kobe Bron will defend them just fine. Ray and Reggie "have the conditioning" to guard them, but Jordan and Bron, 2 of the greatest athletes to play the game, along with another great athlete in Kobe, don't? All of those players have the ability to keep with them and force them off the arc and into the 2 point range. The best bet is whoever Magic is tasked with guarding. But fantasizing that your 1-3 will just feast while holding the greatest 3 scorers of all-time to subpar nights 3-4 times is just that, a fantasy.

Either you can't get in foul trouble in a 5 on 5, or you hack a Shaq and eventually players are fouling out, you can't have both. Like I said to Rhakim, in an actual 7-game series I don't see the OP team being bested but in a single pickup game, sure.

 

[Project Pooch]

That Team really lacking 3pt shooting

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Your lineup with Klay or Kawhi isn't weak defensively. Gil wanted a perimeter trio of Curry-Allen-Miller; that lineup would damn near allow MJ-Kobe-Bron to shoot 60%, and even if they shot 50% they'd be making up for it at the stripe. I think Kobe would be alright with Curry on him if he posts him up regularly.

Curry/Allen/Miller is really weak defensively, I don't see why you would include Miller when you can have Klay instead. I especially don't like it because it forces you to have a weak defender on Kobe AND MJ instead of just Kobe, and MJ was a master of exploiting a defender quickly before help could arrive. Gil's lineup still is so powerful on threes though that you're giving yourself the chance to beat threes with twos. I don't think it's as sure a thing as my lineup but it could still work as a strategy. Who does he have at the 4 and 5? I just realized that whoever is at the 4 is screwed cause they have to guard LeBron all game long, none of Curry/Allen/Miller has a prayer of D'ing up LeBron and he always kills defenders when the same guy guards him all game.

In my lineup if Kobe posts up Curry then you could double off of Magic to help. Or just let him have those shots - even if he makes 55-60%, you're still winning.

We know Magic is weak defensively...same way he'd be targeted for switches, I'm sure the other team can target Curry for switches to let Magic post him.

Difference being that Magic would be getting worked for threes with no help, while Steph would only be getting worked for twos and would have rim protectors behind him.

Those shooters haven't been guarded by Jordan, one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, Bron, one of the most versatile defenders of all-time, and Kobe, a great defender when locked in, on the same team, while having to turn around and guard all 3 of those all-time scorers. I'm not saying it's rare, but just assuming the Bron-Kobe-MJ trio they're facing can't stifle their percentages is stretching it, especially when we both know Curry and Klay every year face teams that feature an injured guard (typically very good defenders), at least in a series. In some one-off pickup game of the gods type of deal, sure.

Take a look at my post above this one. There is NO evidence that MJ/Kobe/LeBron stifle the percentages of elite 3pt-shooters in the playoffs. That's not the kind of defenders they are.

I'd take Kawhi over Klay since I trust him to create his own shot more.

And Kawhi is a more intimidating defender too. But Klay needs less space to get off his shot at an elite level. I think both strategies work.

D-Rob is not covering enough defensive ground to make up for all 3 of those players not being able to contain Jordan Kobe and Bron. Your team cannot really double anyone either especially if move the ball and cut they will feast on drop offs and baseline dunks all day and shoot the 60% you say they need. As far as leaving them open hoping they shoot, Kobe had poor shot selection but teams knew better than leaving him open. Bron became very good catch and catch and shoot 3s and could get plenty.of those on this team. With a defensive 1-3 as weak as yours the OP team isn't struggling in any manner, D-Rob or not.

Klay/Kawhi, Pippen/Kawhi, and Durant are going to at least slow down their perimeter players a little, and Durant and D-Rob are both strong rim-protectors on help defense. You don't need to double much (though you can double off Magic), you just need to make sure they're not getting all their shots at the rim.