Besides Shaq and Wilt, is LeBron the biggest difference maker player in NBA history?

[Jordan>>LeFrozen]

So we're giving Wade a what if scenario of good role players, but not Bron? Or are you saying switch those same role players for Wade, and Bron isn't getting past Boston?

And most if not all of the role players who signed with the Heat that year did so for cheap because they knew they could ride the coattails of the Big 3.

2010 NBA Free Agents and Signings
What players on this list are simultaneously good enough to make up for Bron's impact while fitting into the salary he would've left open?

Depends on what you mean by good role players

Lebron has had 66, 61 and a 50+ Win season in the late 2000s. Wade didn’t have that. A core of good role players with healthy wade and bosh definitely give Boston a good run.

 

[Shadow King]

I'm a bron stan and even I'm right now. Wade had great averages that season and they don't get past boston without him...

I’m saying that Bron w/o wade but good role players could still do it bruh.

You said upthread Bron doesn't past Boston without Wade yet he could win a ring without Wade

Depends on what you mean by good role players

Lebron has had 66, 61 and a 50+ Win season in the late 2000s. Wade didn’t have that. A core of good role players with healthy wade and bosh definitely give Boston a good run.

LeBron had all those wins in the last 3 years of Cleveland because of LeBron...the following season with largely the same cast (outside of 38 year old Shaq and Big Z who no longer a starting center) they dropped their win total by 42 games, and many of those players fell off/fell out of the league within a couple of years.

Giving Boston a good run (which they would) doesn't mean getting past them which is what breh is saying. But that list is showing the actual available role players and I don't see affordable players good enough to fill that void, especially in the SF/PF role.

The closest you can say is some shyt like a combination of Richard Jefferson and John Salmons and hope a big man signs for cheap but even then I don't see it. Everybody else higher on that list was staying put and/or getting the most money they could because they were All-Stars or better, not role players.

 

[camer999]

You said upthread Bron doesn't past Boston without Wade yet he could win a ring without Wade

LeBron had all those wins in the last 3 years of Cleveland because of LeBron...the following season with largely the same cast (outside of 38 year old Shaq and Big Z who no longer a starting center) they dropped their win total by 42 games, and many of those players fell off/fell out of the league within a couple of years.

Giving Boston a good run (which they would) doesn't mean getting past them which is what breh is saying. But that list is an showing the actual available role players and I don't see affordable players good enough to fill that void, especially in the SF/PF role.

The closest you can say is some shyt like a combination of Richard Jefferson and John Salmons and hope a big man signs for cheap but even then I don't see it. Everybody else higher on that list was staying put and/or getting the most money they could because they were All-Stars or better, not role players.

You aren’t understanding me. On the 2011 heat squad if he was without wade he would lose. In my scenario if wade was released and they instead filled out the roster with good role players they could win the chip, just like wade with out Bron in that same scenario.

 

[Shadow King]

You aren’t understanding me. On the 2011 heat squad if he was without wade he would lose. In my scenario if wade was released and they instead filled out the roster with good role players they could win the chip, just like wade with out Bron in that same scenario.

Well of course if one player gets magically erased they don't win anything. I personally don't think either one of them wins the chip without the other, new role players or not, so I gotta agree to disagree.

 

[Jordan>>LeFrozen]

You said upthread Bron doesn't past Boston without Wade yet he could win a ring without Wade

LeBron had all those wins in the last 3 years of Cleveland because of LeBron...the following season with largely the same cast (outside of 38 year old Shaq and Big Z who no longer a starting center) they dropped their win total by 42 games, and many of those players fell off/fell out of the league within a couple of years.

Giving Boston a good run (which they would) doesn't mean getting past them which is what breh is saying. But that list is showing the actual available role players and I don't see affordable players good enough to fill that void, especially in the SF/PF role.

The closest you can say is some shyt like a combination of Richard Jefferson and John Salmons and hope a big man signs for cheap but even then I don't see it. Everybody else higher on that list was staying put and/or getting the most money they could because they were All-Stars or better, not role players.

So win Lebron wins, it’s cause of Lebron. When he loses, though, it’s cause of a bunch of other factors huh?Miami dropped in wins as well and we all know Lebron didn’t win those first 2 titles on his own either. And yes, Miami could of gotten past Boston without Lebron depending on where the money spent of lebron went.

 

[Shadow King]

So win Lebron wins, it’s cause of Lebron. When he loses, though, it’s cause of a bunch of other factors huh?Miami dropped in wins as well and we all know Lebron didn’t win those first 2 titles on his own either. And yes, Miami could of gotten past Boston without Lebron depending on where the money spent of lebron went.

So explain to me why virtually the same team post-LeBron went from 61 to 19 wins. Since the talent was there why didn't they at least grab an 8th seed with the same personnel?

I gave you a list of free agents of the summer of 2010...show me the role players who replace LeBron on the 2010-11 Heat to get them past Boston, Chicago, and win a ring. Do not backtrack and say "but you ain't say nothing about winning a ring" since that was the initial debate I had with the other poster, and you jumped into it. Show me the available role players who make Miami a chip squad.

 

[Jordan>>LeFrozen]

So explain to me why virtually the same team post-LeBron went from 61 to 19 wins. Since the talent was there why didn't they at least grab an 8th seed with the same personnel?

I gave you a list of free agents of the summer of 2010...show me the role players who replace LeBron on the 2010-11 Heat to get them past Boston, Chicago, and win a ring. Do not backtrack and say "but you ain't say nothing about winning a ring" since that was the initial debate I had with the other poster, and you jumped into it. Show me the available role players who make Miami a chip squad.

Virtually the same? They did not have the same core after Lebron left. If you look at the rosters, only Daniel Gibson and maybe like 2 others was still there. Also nobody denied Lebron was at the helm of that team, but to say it was all because of him is ridiculous. Also, you keep talking about free agents, as if trades couldn’t have also been made. Also
A squad with shooters like redikk and Kyle korver, who were both free agents, added along with Richard Jefferson(they could of afforded all 3) would have easily still contended. Boston wasn’t that strong in 2011 to where they undeniably needed Lebron. They almost swept Boston that post season with barely any bench.

 

[Texas2step]

After Jordan went away...sure

He won when Jordan was in the league

 

[Shadow King]

Virtually the same? They did not have the same core after Lebron left. If you look at the rosters, only Daniel Gibson and maybe like 2 others was still there. Also nobody denied Lebron was at the helm of that team, but to say it was all because of him is ridiculous. Also, you keep talking about free agents, as if trades couldn’t have also been made. Also
A squad with shooters like redikk and Kyle korver, who were both free agents, added along with Richard Jefferson(they could of afforded all 3) would have easily still contended. Boston wasn’t that strong in 2011 to where they undeniably needed Lebron. They almost swept Boston that post season with barely any bench.

Gibson
Hickson (starter)
Antawn Jamison (All-Star who took Hickson's spot upon the trade)
Jamario Moon
Anthony Parker (starter)
Varejao
Mo Williams (starter)
That's 7 players who started or had significant minutes from the previous season who stayed after LeBron left.

Redikk signed a sheet with Chicago which Orlando matched he wasn't moving and even if the Heat offered, the Magic who were one of the top East teams at the time weren't gonna let him slip to a division rival.

Korver and Jefferson do not fill LeBron's void. The Heat were already lacking depth so a trade on a LeBron-less team doesn't fix anything unless you're assuming they finesse an All-Star from another team. Year One Heat outside of the the Big 3 gets overrated on here.

 

[LeMAO]

Everywhere Bron goes..records start to get better and his teams end up in the Finals. Is it true?

And his teammates start playing as a spot shooter

 

[R=G]

He won when Jordan was in the league

Oh yeah..the one that lost to Shaq's Magic.

 

[TrebleMan]

I'm taking Curry, dude generates a ton of space for everybody and gets full team defenses to flinch whenever he hesitates from 30+ feet out.

Doesn't join stacked teams, but gets the best players wanting to join his team and break the game.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, and LeBron all belong in the conversation. Possibly Magic, Kareem, Russell, and Bird too.

Of all those, the one thing that sticks out about LeBron (because bringing the most different rosters to the Finals) is just his versatility. If you need scoring, it was him, if you need distributing, it was him. If you needed someone to protect the rim, he did that at an elite level in some series, while in other series he was shutting down perimeter players in the fourth when his team needed it. You need to beat the other guys inside, he did that, you need to beat them outside, he did that. Put him on a roster with no shooting and he'll drag them to the Finals, put him on a roster with no bigs and he'll drag them to the finals, put him on a roster where no one else can dribble and he'll drag them to the finals. I don't think any player has ever been able to play as many necessary roles at an elite level as Bron.

Hakeem the Dream had more impact

Hakeem's such a weird comp because he balled out every year, yet exited in the 1st or 2nd round almost every year and even missed the playoffs once right in the middle of his prime. I think he's one of the greatest two-way players ever and he's in my all-time top-5, but he needed the right players around him or he couldn't go anywhere.

Shaq beat Jordan in the playoffs. Hes basically the most legitimate one man difference maker in basketball history.

It wasn't just Shaq, that 1995 Magic team was low-key stacked as a starting 5. You start off with Shaq and Penny, and then you have Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott both shooting six threes/game and making 40+% of them, and Horace Grant was coming off an all-star year at forward. Their win showed what happens when MJ didn't have the complementary parts he needed (he had Pippen at his prime and that team was loaded with shooters but they had no elite interior defender/rebounder at the 4). Their only problem was the Magic really fell off after the top 5-6 guys, so when injuries hit in 1996 they were screwed.

2000-2004 was really when Shaq was at his difference-making prime.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Exactly

Bron wins a chip pairing with prime Bosh and Wade. Then again with prime Kyrie and Love

Wade wasn't prime Wade in either 2012 or 2013. And Bosh was injured in 2012 and scored an actual 0 points in Game 7 of 2013.

Kyrie was sure as hell prime in 2016, but Love was concussed and absolute crap when they beat the Warriors.

So Wade, who put up 27/7/5 the year before Bron got there and led a team with Beasley as his number two to 47 wins wasn't Flash when Bron got there?

Wade was elite in 2011. 2012 was when he fell off for good - he got hurt and only played 49 of the 66 games, then had to have his knee drained in the playoffs after only scoring 5 points in a game. After that he never again played 70 games in a season with Bron or averaged 22ppg. He was still a star and paired with LeBron he had his most efficient shooting seasons ever, but he wasn't Flash on a consistent basis anymore.

The heat could’ve been a contender if it was wade and bosh and instead of the money they spent on Bron, filled the roster out with multiple iggy+ level players.

Edit: For only like 2 years max though. Dwade was waiting to decline. I think they win 2011 under those circumstances though.

The problem with that approach (even if you see a Wade-led Heat team getting past the Celtics and Bulls) is that the Mavs excelled at shutting down the other team's best player. LMA, Kobe, KD, and LeBron were all either held to lower scoring totals or poor shooting performances or both, even though their teams really needed them to cook. In the Finals the Mavs focused their zone on LeBron and let Wade cook in isolation so long as he didn't get everyone else involved. if they had focused their defense on Wade instead, would role players have picked up the slack? Who?

 

[R=G]

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, and LeBron all belong in the conversation. Possibly Magic, Kareem, Russell, and Bird too.

Of all those, the one thing that sticks out about LeBron (because bringing the most different rosters to the Finals) is just his versatility. If you need scoring, it was him, if you need distributing, it was him. If you needed someone to protect the rim, he did that at an elite level in some series, while in other series he was shutting down perimeter players in the fourth when his team needed it. You need to beat the other guys inside, he did that, you need to beat them outside, he did that. Put him on a roster with no shooting and he'll drag them to the Finals, put him on a roster with no bigs and he'll drag them to the finals, put him on a roster where no one else can dribble and he'll drag them to the finals. I don't think any player has ever been able to play as many necessary roles at an elite level as Bron.




Hakeem's such a weird comp because he balled out every year, yet exited in the 1st or 2nd round almost every year and even missed the playoffs once right in the middle of his prime. I think he's one of the greatest two-way players ever and he's in my all-time top-5, but he needed the right players around him or he couldn't go anywhere.




It wasn't just Shaq, that 1995 Magic team was low-key stacked as a starting 5. You start off with Shaq and Penny, and then you have Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott both shooting six threes/game and making 40+% of them, and Horace Grant was coming off an all-star year at forward. Their win showed what happens when MJ didn't have the complementary parts he needed (he had Pippen at his prime and that team was loaded with shooters but they had no elite interior defender/rebounder at the 4). Their only problem was the Magic really fell off after the top 5-6 guys, so when injuries hit in 1996 they were screwed.

2000-2004 was really when Shaq was at his difference-making prime.

The Magic was alright but without Shaq, they fell off in record time and pretty much left Shaq on his own in the Finals.