Can we stop with this radical politicism??

mbewane

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The thing is that we live in a binary world in general, where it's this OR that. That's how followers of a given religion can separate themselves from the "Infidels" and why they went after "heretics" who dared question parts of said religion. Monotheism itself is based on "Good" vs "Bad" people, and between "Heaven" or "Hell". The concept of purgatory, for example, isn't even accepted in all parts of Christianism.

Same with "racial purity". You've been on the Coli for a long time so you already know that people lose their shyt when discussing mixed people. It's the same in most of real life, where any mixing is seen as potentially dangerous, when it wasn't downright illegal.

So whatever happens in politics is just, as usual, an expression of deeper rooted ways of thinking.

Politics are extremely complex, despite politicans wanting to make us believe they have easy "answers" to whatever topic is at hand. You mix economics, history, georgraphy, culture, religions, sociology, race...all of which are broad sciences/issues themselves, and all of that is part of what we call "politics". But it's way too complex for most people to really comprehend, partly because they don't have the intellectual tools, partly because they have to work, take care of their kids, go that evening course, fix the house...

So as a politician, your best bet is to "keep it simple". Show that you don't need "complicated words". Show that, you too, are a "man of the people". Provide simple answers to complex issues. So obviously as time passes you have peopel repeating those simple "answers", and there's the polarisation.

Also, the fact that politics (and economy) are basically secular beliefs, in the sense that partisans of this political current or that economic theory BELIEVE they are right, often despite the facts. See the financial crisis (and all the other crises) that are presented as "anomalies" even though they keep on repeating themselves, with no one questionning the system itself. Democracy has been in crisis in Europe for like 20 years, and no government (except Iceland) is seriously considering changing the rules.

What I'm saying is that people get polarised partly for these reasons, because they want (need) to BELIEVE that they are right, despite whatever evidence you may bring forth. If someone doens't make it, it's not the system's fault, but THAT PERSON'S fault. So once you're in that mindstate, you will dismiss anything that may lead you to lean on the other side of the spectrum, because it will shake your very foundation.

IMO, every thing is a matter of balance, but to have said balance you already need the intellectual honesty and curiosity to learn stuff from the political affiliation opposite to yours, and THEN you need the courage to say "You know what, this isn't bad at all". But in this day and age of twitter politics there is little space for debate and nuance. And as politician, you therefore risk aleniating your own "base" who just want to believe in YOU and feels "betrayed" if your stance on an issue changes. So, you feed the polarisation.
 

mc_brew

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People who describe themselves as moderates are a) indifferent to the issues, b) ignorant, or c) spineless and afraid to take a strong position. Usually some combination of b and c.
or they are republicans that are ashamed of gwb or were afraid trump wouldn't win....
 

Maschine_Man

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People who describe themselves as moderates are a) indifferent to the issues, b) ignorant, or c) spineless and afraid to take a strong position. Usually some combination of b and c.
where did you come up with that BS??

most moderates are a lot more level headed than these others
 

Maschine_Man

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The thing is that we live in a binary world in general, where it's this OR that. That's how followers of a given religion can separate themselves from the "Infidels" and why they went after "heretics" who dared question parts of said religion. Monotheism itself is based on "Good" vs "Bad" people, and between "Heaven" or "Hell". The concept of purgatory, for example, isn't even accepted in all parts of Christianism.

Same with "racial purity". You've been on the Coli for a long time so you already know that people lose their shyt when discussing mixed people. It's the same in most of real life, where any mixing is seen as potentially dangerous, when it wasn't downright illegal.

So whatever happens in politics is just, as usual, an expression of deeper rooted ways of thinking.

Politics are extremely complex, despite politicans wanting to make us believe they have easy "answers" to whatever topic is at hand. You mix economics, history, georgraphy, culture, religions, sociology, race...all of which are broad sciences/issues themselves, and all of that is part of what we call "politics". But it's way too complex for most people to really comprehend, partly because they don't have the intellectual tools, partly because they have to work, take care of their kids, go that evening course, fix the house...

So as a politician, your best bet is to "keep it simple". Show that you don't need "complicated words". Show that, you too, are a "man of the people". Provide simple answers to complex issues. So obviously as time passes you have peopel repeating those simple "answers", and there's the polarisation.

Also, the fact that politics (and economy) are basically secular beliefs, in the sense that partisans of this political current or that economic theory BELIEVE they are right, often despite the facts. See the financial crisis (and all the other crises) that are presented as "anomalies" even though they keep on repeating themselves, with no one questionning the system itself. Democracy has been in crisis in Europe for like 20 years, and no government (except Iceland) is seriously considering changing the rules.

What I'm saying is that people get polarised partly for these reasons, because they want (need) to BELIEVE that they are right, despite whatever evidence you may bring forth. If someone doens't make it, it's not the system's fault, but THAT PERSON'S fault. So once you're in that mindstate, you will dismiss anything that may lead you to lean on the other side of the spectrum, because it will shake your very foundation.

IMO, every thing is a matter of balance, but to have said balance you already need the intellectual honesty and curiosity to learn stuff from the political affiliation opposite to yours, and THEN you need the courage to say "You know what, this isn't bad at all". But in this day and age of twitter politics there is little space for debate and nuance. And as politician, you therefore risk aleniating your own "base" who just want to believe in YOU and feels "betrayed" if your stance on an issue changes. So, you feed the polarisation.
bruh, if I could give you rep right now I would. Probably naw definitely one of the most thought out and realistic responses I've seen on the coli in a long as time.
But yea I actually agree with you on WHY it is this way.


Now we just need to find a way to limit this.
 

JahFocus CS

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where did you come up with that BS??

most moderates are a lot more level headed than these others

Observation and logic :skip:

I have no interest in a limited imagining of what's possible/"level-headed"/"responsible" based on how those in power have structured society for their benefit.
 

mbewane

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bruh, if I could give you rep right now I would. Probably naw definitely one of the most thought out and realistic responses I've seen on the coli in a long as time.
But yea I actually agree with you on WHY it is this way.


Now we just need to find a way to limit this.

Thx breh, appreciate it...to limit this would need, imo, long-term thinking and REALLY educating people on the complexity of issues we are faced with. I studied in the french system and only in the class before last at HS do you start getting basic teachings about economics and how it works, how do they expect people to understand debt, international trade, taxes etc...afterwards? How can people really know if there's "too much government" if they don't even know which branch does what, and how? How can people have a valid opinion on migration when they don't know history, political realities, costs and benefits of said migration? Etc etc etc today in France a poll revealed that French people think there 30 % Muslims in France...when the actual figure is around 7 %. And so you have people who went to HS and often college who are screaming "invasion".

It sounds cliché, but education imo is the key, but the problem is that those who can invest more in education are precisely those who are at risk of losing the most as people become more educated : politicians.

In Europe there are various experiences at the local level of "participative democracy", in which random citizens are chosen (following statistics so as to be representative of the general population, as much as possible) to debate and suggest answers to precise issues. All these experiences show that random people can and do understand complex issues and often change their opinion as they are presented with facts and can interact with other citizens who have no personnal gain (as opposed to politicians). This imo is very interesting and should be used at a bigger level.

Elections themselves for example are a belief, and are now presented as the alpha and omega of democracy. But democracy means people can express themselves, it doesn't say HOW they have to express themselves. Elections is just go in a booth with your convictions and basically say yes or no. There isn't much space for nuance nor debate in that. And you can only vote or against what is presented to you. Result, very low levels of participation. But, again, people blame those who don't vote instead of trying to understand WHY they don't vote, and adress that.

I really recommend this book : Against Elections, The Case for Democracy by David Van Reybrouck (disregard the cover, it's a bad choice imo for the english translation as it's too "buzz-baiting" imo. Especially since the original book came out two years ago.)

You could also have a look at this e-book : E-book 14: The Malaise of Electoral Democracy and What to Do About It | Re-Bel initiative | Rethinking Belgium I haven't read it but the same author does the prologue and I know some of the works of the others. It's based on experiences in Belgium but the ideas can be applied elsewhere
 

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Those that claim moderates lack critical thinking skills, are indifferent, or are flat out wrong are, in my opinion, the problem. Might that define some moderates? Sure.

But if you think moderates are stupid, then you must believe anyone on the opposite side of the political spectrum is also stupid. In other words, you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid. That makes you an ideologue...the opposite of a critical thinker.
 

JahFocus CS

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Those that claim moderates lack critical thinking skills, are indifferent, or are flat out wrong are, in my opinion, the problem. Might that define some moderates? Sure.

But if you think moderates are stupid, then you must believe anyone on the opposite side of the political spectrum is also stupid. In other words, you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid. That makes you an ideologue...the opposite of a critical thinker.

I think all right-wingers are wrong :ehh:. Most are stupid, some are self-interested, but at least they stand for their positions. I respect some of them a fair deal.

Someone like a @DEAD7 I see as being hopelessly wrong, but some of his positions are insightful and I respect him. He's not stupid.
 

Shogun

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I think all right-wingers are wrong :ehh:. Most are stupid, some are self-interested, but at least they stand for their positions. I respect some of them a fair deal.

Someone like a @DEAD7 I see as being hopelessly wrong, but some of his positions are insightful and I respect him. He's not stupid.
Fair enough, but to call someone hopelessly wrong for disagreeing with you, yet claiming you dont think they're stupid is an attempt at playing both sides of the fence.
Do you respect neo-nazi's more than moderates because they stand for their positions?
 

JahFocus CS

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Fair enough, but to call someone hopelessly wrong for disagreeing with you, yet claiming you dont think they're stupid is an attempt at playing both sides of the fence.
Do you respect neo-nazi's more than moderates because they stand for their positions?

A person can disagree with me and not be stupid. :patrice:

I hate neo-Nazis, and they are of course idiots of the highest order, but at least they are clear on who they are enemies of and what they stand for. I prefer that to a moderate's indifference or ignorance :ehh:. The latter group actually helps create an environment in which the former can gain a foothold and thrive because they muddy the waters of political understanding and action.

Also, when I say "moderate," I'm talking about someone who thinks the answer always or usually lies in the middle between two positions at the poles. I don't mean someone who is in reality undecided on a group of issues.

I stand by my original point that moderates fall into three groups: a) indifferent, b) ignorant, and c) scared to take a stand. They may also lack principles, which I suppose would fall under group A.
 

Berniewood Hogan

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are there any moderates left?
:stopitslime:What's the "moderate" position on people threatening to kill or imprison their political opponents, threatening armed insurrection if an election doesn't go their way, threatening to silence the press, and sending brownshirts after anyone who criticizes you via Twitter?
 
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