DACA - DREAM ACT - Immigration Reform Thread
- Thread starter the next guy
- Start date
Brown_Pride
All Star
No not at all. There are ways to be proactive, one of them does not include making matters, particularly fiscal matters, worse by upping the cost for the problem (prison). The deterrents are there and yet the problem still exists.
Deterrents include: Death, torture, jail, death, jail, torture, etc, etc What are you going to suggest that is worse than those three things? Ironically you want to speak proactively but your REACTION to the problem is to punish after the fact. Prison, as Im sure you know, is not a deterrent for crime, its a punishment.
Um what How Property Taxes Are Calculated
Property taxes are not based on people, they are based on property thats why they are called property taxes. Im not even going to address the rest of your point because it seriously sounds like you dont know what youre talking about. Maybe its different in your state but seriously GOOGLE that shyt before you assume things.
Also, if those kids were in school its most likely because they are citizens, thats probably the reason they are receiving aid too as its illegal to give welfare to undocumented people, their citizen kids though, thats legal.
Oh and those 17 people are paying state and sales taxes. The only REAL net loss America receives from illegal immigration is in law enforcement (i.e. the cost to battle illegal immigration) and
They are citizens, the school is there for them. The budgets are drained because of how taxes are allocated NOT because students want to learn. This is one of the most ignorant arguments of the whole debate on immigration btw. Its a red herring and an attempt to blame piss poor schooling on illegal immigration, which is actually not even the correct argument as those kids are citizens in many cases. Those that arent account for such a small part of the overall educational problem that to focus on that is as silly as focusing on illegal immigration for economic reasons.
Um yeah if a 2k mile walk into some of the harshest environment on earth, being patrolled by both people who want to kill you, people who want to torture you, people who want to kidnap you and people who want to jail you isnt drastically reducing shyt what makes you think a 2-5 year bid upstate with 3 hots and a cot is going to solve shyt. LOL lets not even discuss the dramatic rise of mexico style prison gangs now on the verge of running an even more elaborate crime network here and why adding to those ranks is shooting ourselves in the foot .
It isnt a deterrent now and it wont be then, it may be a LITTLE, but the overall flow of people isnt going to change.
Short of erecting a HUGE fuggin wall and manning it with machine gun nests ever 20 feet there is no real plausible way to stop the flow, slow it down, sure maybe a little, but the cost for such an act would outweigh the cost of the problem. Most solutions to this problem are equivalent to cutting off your brown nose to spite your face.
Yeah I hear yah and I dont agree with that sentiment at all. My examples and use of proximity is purely to argue the cultural influence that is sometimes used as further argument against illegal immigration. The law is the law, crossing is illegal and if you get caught you suffer the law, thats my opinion.
Ill keep this in the other thread for the most part but will clarify that YES I do check brown people when they say shyt. Also you specifically said you check black people for doing petty shyt but defend them doing it in the same breath?
Cant argue with you there, latinos can and are very racist, which is why I do and will continue to check that shyt. Its a problem for sure and if we were discussing latino racism youve got me backing you damn near 100%, so not sure what youre getting at. What youre saying about black people being racist though stunning because youre damn near claiming they are not and when you do claim they can be racist you caveat it with but only as a defense mechanism which is BS through and through. Racism is racism, there are different time and it varies in degree from act to act, but the bottom line is that racism is racism, anything less is intellectual dishonesty.
So to dead your overall defense of racism by black, at least from me, Ill flat out say Hispanics can be racist. Now what? Does that give you a pass now to be racist or did I just remove that pass?
at this point youre just flat out saying its ok for black people to be racist because theyve had it pretty fukin bad. I dont agree with that, Im of the opinion youre not going to change that particular view. Different strokes for different folks I guess. You keep doing you though. I guess because someblack people rob Chinese liquor stores that its ok for the Chinese to be racist towards blacks then. I mean they have a distrust for black people (sure its rooted in stereo type) but hey, distrust and previous experience are whats the key here. Likewise, Ive lived on both coast, and in the mid west and guess what PEOPLE of all shapes and sizes, colors and creed are capable of racism, even with the intent to harm. Im sure you have experiences, as do all people and Im sure what your saying is valid and believe me when I say this really I do take from your experience, it tells me there is still a shyt ton of work to be done. Now learn something from my experiencel, racism, regardless of who is doing it, is indefensible.
Look if you take anything from this take this, racism is not good for anyone and big or small, committed by a white person, or a brown person, racism is still wrong, its wrong in all shapes and forms AND degrees.
Just please stop trying to justify it as you said.. While you may not be racist, you're not contributing to ending it.(yeah its taken out of context)
You said it perfectly though.
Deterrents include: Death, torture, jail, death, jail, torture, etc, etc What are you going to suggest that is worse than those three things? Ironically you want to speak proactively but your REACTION to the problem is to punish after the fact. Prison, as Im sure you know, is not a deterrent for crime, its a punishment.
Well I say let's put this to the test and find out. The possibilty of sitting in jail is a deterrent for the rest of society, but I guess Mexico is such horrible place (although Mexicans take much pride in it) that people will still sit in jail for a couple of years, get deported, and then immediately cross back over. Why would you cross over for a "better life" for yourself, and then be ok with spending that life locked up? But hey, I wouldn't mind seeing this put to the test, because I'm sure people would think twice about illegaly crossing if they were greeted with a jail bid instead of a job. But I get your position though: do little to prevent them from coming in, and if they make it across don't you dare deport them. Alright cool.
Um what How Property Taxes Are Calculated
Property taxes are not based on people, they are based on property thats why they are called property taxes.
I acknowledge that you sonned me on this. I was going off what I've been told and didn't do my due dilligence. So I'll take my L and keep it moving.
Also, if those kids were in school its most likely because they are citizens, thats probably the reason they are receiving aid too as its illegal to give welfare to undocumented people, their citizen kids though, thats legal.
I've actually worked in the school system before and I can tell you that there are a lot illegal students in the schools. They're called "New Arrivals" and an entirely different curriculum is set aside for them. Some districts obviously have more than others, but yes that stretches the budget when ESL programs, free lunch, and mobile classrooms are constructed to account for the tide of illegal children.
Oh and those 17 people are paying state and sales taxes. The only REAL net loss America receives from illegal immigration is in law enforcement (i.e. the cost to battle illegal immigration) and
All the money getting sent back to Mexico and not being recycled through the US ecomony is not a net loss? What about the black market that illegals use where there is no sales tax? I'm not in the mood to be googling shyt so you can have that.
They are citizens, the school is there for them. The budgets are drained because of how taxes are allocated NOT because students want to learn. This is one of the most ignorant arguments of the whole debate on immigration btw. Its a red herring and an attempt to blame piss poor schooling on illegal immigration, which is actually not even the correct argument as those kids are citizens in many cases. Those that arent account for such a small part of the overall educational problem that to focus on that is as silly as focusing on illegal immigration for economic reasons.
Students want to learn?Piss poor schooling?
I have beef with the education system, but I can tell you that legislatures have really tied teachers' hands on a lot of things. I know most parents send their kids to school and expect the teachers to raise the kids for them, but the students and parents share equal responsibilty in education. I don't think education is at the top of the priority list for a lot of illegals. They have other things on their mind, and hence a lot of these ESL classes where they just "want to learn" are the hardest for many teachers to conduct because many of the students just don't give a fukk (yes I know the teachers must be incompetent). I mean the US constructs special curriculum for illegals and you dismiss it as "piss poor schooling". This is why I say that Latino immigrants have maybe had it too easy.
Um yeah if a 2k mile walk into some of the harshest environment on earth, being patrolled by both people who want to kill you, people who want to torture you, people who want to kidnap you and people who want to jail you isnt drastically reducing shyt what makes you think a 2-5 year bid upstate with 3 hots and a cot is going to solve shyt. LOL lets not even discuss the dramatic rise of mexico style prison gangs now on the verge of running an even more elaborate crime network here and why adding to those ranks is shooting ourselves in the foot .
Release all the people in the pen for petty marijuana crimes, and fill it up with illegals. Problem solved.
It isnt a deterrent now and it wont be then, it may be a LITTLE, but the overall flow of people isnt going to change.
I disagree, but whatever.
Short of erecting a HUGE fuggin wall and manning it with machine gun nests ever 20 feet there is no real plausible way to stop the flow, slow it down, sure maybe a little, but the cost for such an act would outweigh the cost of the problem. Most solutions to this problem are equivalent to cutting off your brown nose to spite your face.
The real deterrent is them not being able to find jobs or squat comfortably in the US. Jail is just another one. I'm all for work visas and whatnot, but when the visas expire many people just stay and that's wrong. There needs to be some accountability and some form of respect for the law.
Yeah I hear yah and I dont agree with that sentiment at all. My examples and use of proximity is purely to argue the cultural influence that is sometimes used as further argument against illegal immigration. The law is the law, crossing is illegal and if you get caught you suffer the law, thats my opinion.
And yet you don't believe people that make it should be deported. That's the law as well.
Ill keep this in the other thread for the most part but will clarify that YES I do check brown people when they say shyt. Also you specifically said you check black people for doing petty shyt but defend them doing it in the same breath?
I actually think your trolling with the racism stuff, or perhaps your so dug into your position that you can't see what multiple black posters have wrote in regards to racism. There's really no point in debating this because you'll ignore half of it and make more threads complaining about black racism.
What youre saying about black people being racist though stunning because youre damn near claiming they are not and when you do claim they can be racist you caveat it with but only as a defense mechanism which is BS through and through. Racism is racism, there are different time and it varies in degree from act to act, but the bottom line is that racism is racism, anything less is intellectual dishonesty.
I honestly don't understand why your having a hard time understanding this, or if you're even trying to. And if you're not, that's fine, let's just keep it honest. Your throwing pseudo-intellectualism at this but there's much more to it than that.
So to dead your overall defense of racism by black, at least from me, Ill flat out say Hispanics can be racist. Now what? Does that give you a pass now to be racist or did I just remove that pass?
Good.... good...... good, a Hispanic that actually acknowledges the overwhelmingly racism Hispanics exhibit towards blacks. Now if the Latino community can acknowledge this, and start taking steps to counter their racism, then we'll all be on a good path. And it'll also empower the claims of racism that Latinos make towards other groups. And yes, it removes the black pass to be racist, because as I've already stated (although you obviously don't want to hear or acknowledge it), black racism is mostly reactionary from the vitriol we hear from other groups. So if Latinos stop hurling racist shyt at blacks, I guarantee blacks will subside their racism as well because they won't feel the need to defend themselves from Latino bigotry. And yes, I put more of the responsibilty for this on Latinos because historically Latinos have more negative views and racist ideologies towards blacks. Likewise, in dealing with White vs. Latino racism, I put the onus on white people for the same reasons. Whatever group opened the door to racism, should be the one to try to close it and I'm sure things will smooth over. Now I realize you don't/can't get where I'm coming from and your probably sitting there like, but that's fine... we'll just disagree.
I wouldn't fault a Chinese person to become racist towards blacks if blacks kept shytting on them. You want to make everything right or wrong, and its not that simple. Its important to understand WHERE the harsh feelings are coming from if we're ever going to heal this racial shyt.
Now learn something from my experiencel, racism, regardless of who is doing it, is indefensible.
You take a "this or that" approach and leave no room for anything in the middle.
Look if you take anything from this take this, racism is not good for anyone and big or small, committed by a white person, or a brown person, racism is still wrong, its wrong in all shapes and forms AND degrees.
I don't think anybody has said it is right.
Just please stop trying to justify it as you said.. While you may not be racist, you're not contributing to ending it.(yeah its taken out of context)
I'm not justifying anything. I'm just trying to point out where racism stems from in certain groups. I'm trying to get to the core of it because that's the only way we're going to heal it and become a unfied society. I know its a dirty job and a lot of people would rather stay away from the causes of racism, but there are tangible causes that need to be addressed and eradicated if we're ever going to overcome it. You ask if its right or wrong. I ask where is stems from, and how do we heal it. That's our main difference. It doesn't matter tho.... you fight it your way, and I'll fight it mine.
Brown_Pride
All Star
Im not going to do your research but Ill give you a starting point, Let me google that for you, bottom line is no, its not. You may not understand it, I admit I dont get it either, but no prison is not a deterrent for crime, the numbers and facts are in and prison, as it is now, doesnt scare people from doing dirt.
Im not saying there are none, Im also not saying it isnt an issue, what I am saying is that its a drop in the bucket on a grand scale. Those ESL programs are also used by CITIZENS whos parents are illegal and who arent taught English at home (true right?) Again, drop in the bucket, a shyt argument people like to use that generalizes all Spanish speaking kids. Its intellectually dishonest.
Question: how do you know those kids are illegal? Do you ask them?
Now why is that? Because their families are in mexico. Why is that? Because they cant bring them here. Why is that? Because its not allowed.
That bleeding out of money is a problem, I agree, but again it isnt a debilitating problem. Like I said ECONOMICALLY the effect is maginal, this is not an opinion, its a fact. Check with the bush era congressional budget office if you want to verify. And what black market are you talking about? Im sure ALL OF THEM are using it though right?
Things you dont take into account are that illegals purchase, they rent, they rent to own, they consume, even when sending money back to mexico. Many pay income tax, sure not on the right SS# but they still pay, most dont know they can get a refund so that shyt stays with the IRS.
Again check with the congressional budget office for further information on the impact of illegals on the bottom line.
I blame legislators too, I love teachers, I know it isnt their fault, and they try with the crap they are given (by legislators).
Education isnt a priority for far to many period, not just illegals, please dont argue otherwise itll just make you look silly. Im also pretty big on parent involvement: http://www.the-coli.com/higher-lear...their-sons-succeeded-school.html#.T-yHhbJA4V4
I can agree with about 50% of that statement.
BAM you said it right there. If you want real change then start there, that has time and again been the ONLY consistant factor that has decreased illegal immigration, it is the ONLY deterrent, not having a job. I am all for work visas, in fact Ill lay out my solution in a following post, see what you think.
on the contrary if youre here illegally and get caught you get sent back. Right now thats the gamble you make.
I'm not justifying anything.]
This pretty much sums up your racism ideology. Racism, to you, per your very own words is OK as long as there is a good enough reason for it. Im sorry I cannot buy into that.
There was once a group of people that bought into the concept that another group of people was responsible for their plight. They were fed the idea that a certain group of people had shytted on them for years. Ultimately that pretext was used to commit the following:
Racism is wrong bra, in all shapes and forms.
Type Username Here
Not a new member
Props to the President for this, if I haven't said it yet.
SafeForWork
Banned
Type Username Here
Not a new member
Nobody really cares about your "props" or whether you said it yet or not.
Ok, thanks.
SafeForWork
Banned
Thank me again. See what happens.
Type Username Here
Not a new member
SafeForWork
Banned
I know arguing about social shyt is a hobby for you, but its about time to wrap this up:-Being a brown person, I can see you're always going to have justifications for illegal immigration. However, I know damn well if it was 12 million illegal Africans, you wouldn't give a shyt. I've already stated that I could care less about the nuances of illegal immigration. My ONLY beef was with the negative views that Latin Americans hold towards blacks, and being a black male, I'm not just gonna welcome in millions of people that have spiteful feelings towards me just because I'm black. My beef is with the mentality people bring over here, not the people themselves. And then you countered with, "well... well black people are racist too!"
and that was the catalyst to this dissertation that's been typed between the two of us. If I'm promoting "Unity in Diversity" and trying to bring demographics together, I'm not gonna be too excited about welcoming in millions of foreigners that still have a Jim Crow mentality in regards to race. Don't you think that's counter-productive for what I'm trying to do? 
-You don't think the threat of going to jail is a deterrent?
Fine. Think that. The knuckleheads I grew up around would say differently.-How do I know a student is illegal? First of all, I have common sense. Second of all, I do know the general history of most of the students. I don't deal with elementary and kindergarten. I'm junior high and high school. So if a 14 year old kid is in 7th grade, and he's in the "New Arrivals" program, doesn't speak a lick of english (wouldn't a citizen have been in the school system for awhile and picked up some english?), and makes it a point to tell his story of how he came to the US, I'd bet all my Coli Cash that he's here illegally.
-You trying to "sum up" my racism ideology is just
because its more complicated than you care to try to understand. Let me try to break it down one last time: I think racism is WRONG, but because of my extensive travels and the broad range of people I deal with, I recognize that its deeper than the brush you try to paint it with. Saying "don't use these words" is just putting a band-aide on the problem. I think racism is unnatural. People are TAUGHT to be racist. Whether being TAUGHT is actual propoganda, or reactionary to life experiences, its still TAUGHT. I mispoke when I said "I wouldn't fault a Chinese person to become racist" towards blacks if blacks kept fukking with them. I meant to say "I understand how they could become racist", and there is a big difference. That's not justifying anything. In that particular example, the Chinese person was TAUGHT to mistrust blacks, which could lead to them being racist towards blacks. That overrides the simple concept of "right or wrong". Telling that Chinese person to not say mean things towards blacks won't solve anything, because that Chinese person will still have negative feelings towards blacks. The CAUSE of those feelings need to be resolved if racism is to be quelled. White people need to get over their feeling of superiority and imperialism towards other groups to truly stifle their racism. A lot of Latin American racism stems from the racist ideologies that the Spaniards had hundreds of years ago. Paki vs. India racism stems from political strife between the two countries. Black American racism stems from the mistrust that blacks have towards other groups for what's been done over several centuries. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the CAUSE is important. You don't just put a band-aide on the wound. You clean it first and stitch it up if need be. Damn near every demographic has a different CAUSE for their racist views, and all these CAUSES were taught at some point; they need to be re-taught and a shift in consciousness is needed. So stop by saying I justify racism. I just think it's bigger than words that come out of people's mouths. As you said in regards to some things with illegal immigration, the words are a "drop in the bucket". So if you're gonna make a Reverse Racism thread, don't just whine about words. Dig into the root cause of racism and why those words manifested, and what solutions can be made to quell the full spectrum of racism. Oh and in regards to cac (which seems to be the catalyst of your thread) and ******. No sir they are not the same. A white poster has already said that cac doesn't bother him that much. I actually asked some white folks today what effect does cac have on them, and they said not much. Nonblacks know that ****** is very hurtful to blacks, to the point where blacks would prefer nonblacks don't use it. And when its used, yes, its gonna be assumed that the person is racist because there's a tangible history behind the word; just as there's a tangible history behind spic, kike, wetback, zipperhead etc. (I personally haven't seen posters using those terms). When I was a youngin', I'd lightheartedly throw around phases like "that's gay" or "faq" all the time until a lesbian schooled me on the historical implications of the word and how exactly they deemeaned and hurt her; I've never used those phrases since. I'm sure if some white poster will step up to the plate and break down the historical significance of cac, then I'm sure they'll receive more empathy and people will stop using it. But for now, it just comes across like whining because a negative word is actually being hurled at a white person, and I guess that's not something they've historically had to deal with. Notice how when you've used ******, none of the black people have checked you, because we sensed that your INTENT was not to demean or anything; it was purely academic. White people will never get the benefit of the doubt using the word (whether that's right or wrong) because of how white people have historicaly used it. Black folks (again whether right or wrong) will always assume the INTENT from white people using ****** is to be harmful and demeaning.
I guess you felt like you were schooling me with that Nazi Germany example, but that's a pretty bad example. A madmen and his politcal party came to power and starting doing crazy shyt. You do know that when the full crux of his schemes came into fruition, the majority of Germans were against what he was doing, even to the point where they risked their lives to conceal and help Jews? And if you speak to Germans nowadays (as I have), they consider that to be a very dark mark on their history, and they consider it a source of shame. I understand what you were trying to say with that example, but you need to dig deeper and break down the nuances better instead of running to google.
-Although you're quite annoying, I have no ill will towards you because I don't think you're malicious or anything. You see the world through your eyes, and I see it through mine. I'm not like our government that wants to start a war because somebody disagrees with them. Live and let live. But this topic has been beaten to death and it's about time to move on.
I hate our news outlets. According to the mainstream media Obamaissued an executive order when nothing of the kind. What has really happened is that a DHS memo signed by Janet Napolitano has extended a discretionary deportation practice that has been available for years.
And the wording of the new "policy" makes it sound to me like if you are illegal and unlucky enough to get some ultra-patriotic redneck hamdling your case then you could still possibly be deported:
And the wording of the new "policy" makes it sound to me like if you are illegal and unlucky enough to get some ultra-patriotic redneck hamdling your case then you could still possibly be deported:
the next guy
Superstar
the next guy
Superstar
bump