Elon Musk says robots will push us to a universal basic income

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Here is an interesting piece on why UBI is not an unequivocally good thing: Universal Basic Income: freedom for workers?

Excerpts:

What freedom is there in the wage system, the system of propertied and propertyless people, when the majority must sell their physical and mental faculties, their time with their families and friends, their freedom to be who and what they are, in order to obtain what they need?

What justice is there in a system where those who do the vast majority of the work see little of the product of that labour? Where do we find justice in a system where the workers who create the wealth see hardly any of it?

The idea of a Universal Basic Income posed as a solution to this problem is alluring. It’s a recognition that human life and existence has value beyond a person’s ability to perform labour. And while, like the benefits system and the NHS, it might be a welcome concession granted to working people, it is not the salve to cure all ills. Certainly not if it’s posited as a wholesale replacement for the current benefits system.

Universal Basic Income (UBI) at its heart is little more than a change to the benefits system that already exists. It does little to address the need for real change in relations of production. There is little that is truly radical about UBI on these terms.

It may, by a relatively small amount, possibly raise the lot of the worst off, but we ignore the opportunist and anti-humane nature of capitalism at our peril. Capitalism has a habit of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. Production will still occur on the basis of profit and not need. A small number of people will still be accumulating more and more wealth at the expense of those living on the UBI crumbs that fall under the table. How would we ensure that UBI is and remains enough for people to not just get by on, but live a full life if production is still carried out for profit and if capitalists are still willing and able to fleece people for what little crumbs they get?

UBI won't democratize the workplace where human labour is still required. It won't democratize production and distribution where this labour has been automated. It won't reorganize production on the basis of need rather than profit. UBI isn't the solution we need to the problem of production relations between capitalists and the people who are currently forced to sell their labour in order to live.

The people who will need UBI to survive are still reliant on a political and capitalist class being willing to allow them the means of that survival. There is a danger in selling UBI as a solution to poverty and inequality. UBI is nothing of the sort. It doesn't change the relationship between the propertied and propertyless classes nearly enough, and radical change here is necessary if we are to safeguard our freedom to live against propertied vultures. We need to be in charge of our own destiny.

What happens if a change of circumstances comes along where automation of labour is no longer cost-effective or viable, or when new industry comes along which requires a significant supply of human labour? Capitalists will be under pressure to find this supply of labour and will place pressure on politicians to make changes which make this supply easier to procure. Would we be in a position to resist the partial or total withdrawal of our means of life that might result from this, forcing us back into wage labour?

With current trends in the cost of education, healthcare and transport to workers, will a large part of our UBI be spent on getting this education for ourselves and our children? Will we be using it to pay for privatized healthcare, and more expensive bus and train fares? Will it be an excuse to cut further help for those who would still be in need even with the UBI? Or to cut pensions?

And with more voices on the right of the political spectrum coming round to the idea of a Universal Basic Income on their terms, we need to recognize that UBI appears to be simply an adjustment to the way capitalism currently functions. It doesn’t offer a foundational challenge to capitalism. If it did, no self-respecting advocate of capitalism would consider it. So let’s briefly examine the foundation on which capitalism is built.

The basis of capitalism rests on the relationship between the capitalist and the worker. The worker must sell his or her labour in order to live. The capitalist needs that labour to produce things to sell. So a capitalist will buy and own the raw materials, tools etc. necessary for production and will then hire workers to work with the tools and the raw materials to produce what the capitalist tells the workers to produce. The workers will then use the tools to turn the raw materials into something the capitalist then sells.

So far, so logical. But let’s look a bit more closely at the relationship and how it benefits the capitalist. Let’s say the capitalist owns a factory that makes wooden tables. This means he needs to buy an amount of wood and the tools to make the tables (hammers, nails, glue etc). He also needs workers to come and use the tools to turn the wood into tables he then sells. Let’s say he spends 10 on the raw materials for one table and when it’s finished the table is worth 20. The worker who comes in to turn the raw materials into a table uses his or her skills and energy, takes the raw materials and adds value to them in the form of a finished table. The capitalist then pays the worker. The table immediately belongs to the capitalist and the capitalist sells the table for 20.

Now let’s look at the process in its simplest terms. The capitalist has spent money on tools and raw materials and on a worker to build the table. The worker has used brain power and muscle power to turn the raw materials into a table (which immediately belongs to the capitalist and not to the worker), adding 10 units of value to the raw materials in the form of labour. The capitalist then sells the table. But something is missing. What did the capitalist pay the worker?

If the capitalist paid the worker the value of his or her labour, this adds up to 10. The capitalist has spent 10 on the raw materials and tools, and 10 on the labour to use these up and produce a table worth 20. The capitalist then sells the table for 20. What’s in this for the capitalist? He’s spent 20, and at the end of the process he’s received 20. So what was the point? The capitalist hasn’t got anything out of this arrangement.

But what happens if the capitalist pays 10 for the raw materials and tools, but only pays the worker 8 for his or her labour? The capitalist sells the table for 20, but it only cost 18 to produce. The 2 left over is the capitalist’s profit.

So the key is in the nature of the relationship between the worker and the capitalist. One capitalist isn’t likely to sell wood or tools to another capitalist for less than what they’re worth. So where does a capitalist find a reason to be in production in the first place? The reason is profit, and that profit is found by the capitalist paying the workers less than the value of their work.

With those on the right who are open to the concept using UBI as a means to prop up and reinforce existing socio-economic relations between capitalists and workers by making the relationship slightly more palatable to workers without jeopardizing too much the capitalist's privileged position in society, and simultaneously balking at the idea that the UBI would be enough to live comfortably on, a consensus on the nature of UBI is likely only going to be a compromise. In essence we as workers have been reduced, by the capitalist class and the politicians who support them, to tools of work; a cog in a machine; essentially born to work for them, and have our work make them money.

If we're going to be truly free, we need to have the freedom to pursue our goals where and when and how we see fit. Wage labour is fundamentally incompatible with this. The right's vision for UBI is as a replacement for the benefits system already in place. Just enough for the absolute basics of survival and only because dead workers can't be exploited. This is clearly of limited value to workers. The left's vision for UBI must be as a step on the path to true freedom for working people and not seen as the solution to poverty and inequality. And not as a necessary step, but one possible step.

And while automation offers hope of one day ending labour, we have to recognize that automation as carried out by capitalism is ruining lives and making many destitute, forcing millions into precarious, low-paid and ever more demeaning labour. While automation remains a capitalist project, workers will not be allowed to benefit from it.

We can’t ignore this. We can’t put our eggs in one basket where UBI is concerned and allow capital to automate millions of jobs out of existence. If the battle for what is essentially a reform of the benefits system is lost (and there is every reason to suspect it could easily be), then the potential for the immiseration of swathes of workers is very real. The political establishment has shown no real signs of being concerned with the lot of workers. The past 40 years have seen continuing and intensifying attacks on welfare and social security programs throughout the developed world and these have shown no sign of slowing down. The environment isn’t exactly ideal for the introduction of a Universal Basic Income favourable to the working-class. It would be naïve to think that UBI wouldn’t quickly become entrenched in the same ideological war, and bureaucratic and legislative nightmare the current benefits system is caught up in and has been for the duration of the neoliberal project. With publicly funded welfare and health programmes under constant attack all over the neoliberal world, it would be naïve to believe that the introduction of UBI would favour working-class interests over those of the capitalists in this environment.

This is essentially a continuation and intensification of the exploitation of these developing economies largely to the advantage of capitalists in developed economies but also of some benefit to workers here, who because of this can at least in the short-to-medium term continue to benefit from cheap goods made in these developing economies. In the long term, there’s no reason why capital can’t roll back such concessions once profitable markets have been established in the economies currently classed as developing. It would be a mistake to think that the introduction of a Universal Basic Income in the developed economies would be, or from the point of view of capital, would need to be a permanent state of affairs. The past 40 years of neoliberal hegemony provides the lesson here, with the post-war concessions made to the working-class now under constant attack. In the long term, with a Universal Basic Income being funded from increased taxation of the rich and corporations, it’s hard to see capital being happy with a situation where they’re essentially propping up Western markets, paying consumers in developed economies to buy from them without receiving something substantial like productive labour in return. Capitalists are more likely to abandon the developed economies in much the same way as communities like Britain’s former mining centres and Detroit have already been, in favour of developing and expanding markets in Asia and South America.

@Swavy Karl Marx @BaggerofTea
 

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1 In 3 Black Males Will Go To Prison In Their Lifetime, Report Warns | The Huffington Post
Black men are the most unemployable group in the USA ...and 1 in 3 Black males will go to prison in their life time...

People that don't work...are useless to society and a blight on society...

You just don't leave them sitting around at home...

Exactly

These nikkas think the ruling elite will let them play xbox all day long and forment plans of rebellion :mjlol:


nah think again

20150821_gulag.jpg


if they cant keep us busy theyll keep us contained
 

Adidacs

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Exactly

These nikkas think the ruling elite will let them play xbox all day long and forment plans of rebellion :mjlol:


nah think again

20150821_gulag.jpg


if they cant keep us busy theyll keep us contained

can you elaborate so i can understand where you're coming from better

you're saying keep everyone in the mundane loop of work eat sleep because elites might throw a hissy fit if everyone isn't suffering?

there would still be distinct classes and an enormous wealth gap
 

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can you elaborate so i can understand where you're coming from better

you're saying keep everyone in the mundane loop of work eat sleep because elites might throw a hissy fit if everyone isn't suffering?

there would still be distinct classes and an enormous wealth gap

Sure why not...That wealth gap will be a huge source of class tensions..Class tensions tend to boil over into revolution à la "a tale of two cities" type tensions

Previously under feudalism the vast lower classes were far easier to manage because they were born into caste systems reinforced by religion..they understood that God himself wanted the nobles to be born noble and the serfs to be serfs so they would happily live their lives serving the ruling class as they felt it was divinely ordained..then some german monk named martin luther fukked that up but thats a digression.
The point is the elites will always have a fear of the underclasses and the underclass will always envy them..no amount of free money will reduce this ...the only thing thats worked for the last 300 or so years is some chance at upward mobility...once you remove that with the UBI ..all bets are off

Thats purely my own opinion of course and i apologize if it isnt real clear...im drinking and posting
 

AlainLocke

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Sure why not...That wealth gap will be a huge source of class tensions..Class tensions tend to boil over into revolution à la "a tale of two cities" type tensions

Previously under feudalism the vast lower classes were far easier to manage because they were born into caste systems reinforced by religion..they understood that God himself wanted the nobles to be born noble and the serfs to be serfs so they would happily live their lives serving the ruling class as they felt it was divinely ordained..then some german monk named martin luther fukked that up but thats a digression.
The point is the elites will always have a fear of the underclasses and the underclass will always envy them..no amount of free money will reduce this ...the only thing thats worked for the last 300 or so years is some chance at upward mobility...once you remove that with the UBI ..all bets are off

Thats purely my own opinion of course and i apologize if it isnt real clear...im drinking and posting

Your opinion makes sense...

A UBI pretty much means..."Well...there's no hope for you to be the next Elon Musk...here's your 500 dollars a month..."

The USA prides itself on "opportunity" and "hard work" and "equality"


UBI means that the USA exceptionalism is a lie...

The fact that we have extremely wealthy cacs...willing to give us free money...because well...there will be a permanent underclass...well...us descendants of slaves are the permanent underclass....but that like the underclass will be more diverse...meaning there will cacs...

It is telling us that they don't want a problem with this bubbling underclass...they are willing to break bread with us...and keep their money...

UBI as what these capitalists want is a cope out...

They will keep their capital and have the government pay off it's own citizens so we won't revolt...

Average America vs the One Percent
The average annual income of the top 1 percent of the population is $717,000, compared to the average income of the rest of the population, which is around $51,000. The real disparity between the classes isn't in income, however, but in net value: The 1 percent are worth about $8.4 million, or 70 times the worth of the lower classes.

Figure-2-e1455723827815.png



fukk a UBI...I want capital and ownership...
 
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Adidacs

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what's being discussed is a ubi in response to automation

automation coming no matter what the fukk you do, it makes no sense to postpone the inevitable just to keep people busy

i'm failing to see how it would stifle your upward mobility

please explain how more time and financial security would keep you from gaining capital or ownership
 

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what's being discussed is a ubi in response to automation

automation coming no matter what the fukk you do, it makes no sense to postpone the inevitable just to keep people busy

i'm failing to see how it would stifle your upward mobility

please explain how more time and financial security would keep you from gaining capital or ownership

:ehh: Okay..you know how this economy works..right..you get an idea for a product..hire people to make your product and sell it to other people who also work to build shyt that you need..and you earn and spend cash that is connected to your production and efforts..the more you produce and sell..the more you make and vice versa.

Now a fully automated world needs only one person..the idea guy..machines do all the building and distribution..since you use your UBI to buy what you need to survive money is no longer connected to the real economy since the robots can produce whatever is needed and as much as is required 24/7.

Only two groups of people have power...the ones who control the robots (the upper class) and the ones who control the supply and value of your UBI (the govt)...how would you make extra money ? you have no means of production since you have no robots..and even if you found some way to produce (which will likely be illegal ) who would you sell it to...everyone you know is also on UBI and its probably gonna be electronic and almost impossible to transfer to you ...By that time the govt will have gotten rid of all the cash

The UBI will most likely only be spendable in govt approved stores to stop people buying drugs /prostitutes/gambling illegally..even if you did find some way to transfer it to your account and have millions of units all you will own is government issued credit..it will likely never be usable currency since its no longer connected to real wealth...you wont be able to buy land or a plant and set up your own robot production plant to complete with the elites..you will always be a member of the lower class..no matter how much UBI you get.
 
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Adidacs

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:ehh: Okay..you know how this economy works..right..you get an idea for a product..hire people to make your product and sell it to other people who also work to build shyt that you need..and you earn and spend cash that is connected to your production and efforts..the more you produce and sell..the more you make and vice versa.

Now a fully automated world needs only one person..the idea guy..machines do all the building and distribution..since you use your UBI to buy what you need to survive money is no longer connected to the real economy since the robots can produce whatever is needed and as much as is required 24/7.

Only two groups of people have power...the ones who control the robots (the upper class) and the ones who control the supply and value of your UBI (the govt)...how would you make extra money ? you have no means of production since you have no robots..and even if you found some way to produce (which will likely be illegal ) who would you sell it to...everyone you know is also on UBI and its probably gonna be electronic and almost impossible to transfer to you ...By that time the govt will have gotten rid of all the cash

The UBI will most likely only be spendable in govt approved stores to stop people buying drugs /prostitutes/gambling illegally..even if you did find some way to transfer it to your account and have millions of units all you will own is government issued credit..it will likely never be usable currency since its no longer connected to real wealth...you wont be able to buy land or a plant and set up your own robot production plant to complete with the elites..you will alaways be a member of the lower class..no matter how much UBI you get.

so it sounds like your beef is with automation, not a ubi

as for the bold, i see little wrong with that if it should be the case

all good as long as it can be put towards housing and food
 

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:comeon: you seriously comparing one occupation going obsolete at a time to what we are facing now...this shyts unprecedented bruh..theres robots being prepared to drive Trucks and taxis,work on farms,write sotware,build consumer goods,do all the clerical ,administrative jobs,Prepare food,run entire stores,do police work,Millitary ..

i cant think of any field that is gonna be safe other than building and servicing robots and the creative arts.

Switchboard operators and lamplighters had the luxury of time to find something else..but the future workers wont be so lucky...in 20 to 30 years the disruptions will be massive..the writing is on the wall.. why do you think Elon musk and the others are trying to sell UBI so hard.

No it's not....

It's a step towards servitude...

First of all...the income inequality gap has been rapidly expanding while the income haven't move since 70s...

Any gains in the economy, goes towards the top 1 percent...

White House Predicts Robots May Take Over Many Jobs That Pay $20 Per Hour | The Huffington Post
In a report to Congress this week, White House economists forecast an 83 percent chance that workers earning less than $20 per hour will lose their jobs to robots.


So what really is going on with these uber-capitalist proposing a universal basic income...

"We won, we drove your wages down to dust, we shipped your jobs off to Asia, we blocked all efforts for you to organize and take control of the capital creating process. Now we gonna propose the government pays you off so you won't revolt, so we can take our robot army and do what we will."



And UBI is being proposed by both liberals, leftists and conservatives...and it isn't feasible.
http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ng-welfare-payments-basic-income-all-alluring
Even in Finland, universal basic income is too good to be true | Declan Gaffney

Conservatives think we should just cut all social services...and just have UBI...which is ridiculous...and just conservative bullshyt...

Liberals and Leftists think UBI should be an add in to already existing services....


Truth of the matter is...UBI is a sign of doom. Fascism in the USA is the sign of doom. It's capitalists and the working class majority and the bourgeoisie, realizing that the system has raped and pillage enough and now they are trying to save their ass.

The solution and the only solution are worker owned places of employment, where worker dictate their destiny. Not capitalists.

Universal Basic Income is a cop out.

Thank you all for having forethought and not being simpleminded.
 
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