Episode 4 of SirBiatch in Concert: "All sounds of hip hop come from New York"

SirBiatch

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I normally don't play your borderline troll games....so are you going to make up your mind? Did EPMD influence the westcoast? Or was it Zapp? Or was it Whoodini. It can't be ALL of them.

we're having discussion here. Relax. Frankly I don't know who influenced the West Coast specifically. Which is why I'm asking you and trying to get specific.

You said Dre was making funk in 88 around the same time as EPMD. then you quoted yourself saying it was 84, 4 years earlier. which one is it, 'only in California'? :troll: Nah, you wouldn't be getting heated because your Cali pride depends on it, right?

You already conceded that EPMD didn't make gangsta rap but you want to argue to bump your threads.

nah. You're looking too deep into it.

Ive always gave credit where it is do. In fact I did it TWICE in this thread but since your simple ass doesn't read (and likes to troll for more posts) when you quote you want to say shyt like that.

That 'part' you don't seem to care about is probably the most important part of Hip Hop and it didn't come from NYC.

again, no need for personal insults. I'm all about discussion here.

I don't care about 'parts' because almost all parts of hip hop pre-existed before Kool Herc. People 'rapped' decades before hip hop. The first true funk song, Cold Sweat, came out in 67 and was recorded in Ohio. Does that mean hip hop started in Ohio? Nah

The point is.... all those things came together at a specific time and place to create hip hop. And that was in NYC. period.
 

IllmaticDelta

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I always thought in Hip Hop Funk was Cali. Electro/Boogie was New York.

NYC = funky drummer style funk(James brown) = breakbeats = boom bap

West Coast = synth funk (zapp,p-funk etc..) = g-funk

Old post of mine



Dawg, all funk is funk.

Funk is Funk but there are clear sub sounds within it


Get up off that thang by James brown and the breakdown is pretty much the basis for all pfunk records.
As, all pfunk originators point to jb breaks.

Cats in the Bronx where HipHOp started were not bboying/mcing over P-Funk and synth heavy Funk. While P-Funk did keep the On the One groove, the rest of the music sounded nothing like James Brown's core Funk sound.


Hip Hop And Funk.. Bay Area Style


Folks may recall how rappers brought artists like James Brown and Donald Byrd back into the forefront of Black music during the mid 80s when their music was freely sampled in every which way, shape and form by literally hordes of artists. Back then folks may recall the commonly expressed sentiment that many ascribed too.."
if it wasn't for the rap artists James Brown would be unknown to the younger generation
." And to a large degree there was a lot of truth in that statement, after all, at that time Black radio wasn't aggressively promoting a format in which they would highlight "classic" artists like Brown while maintaining their appeal to younger listeners... The result was many young white listeners being able tell you all about pop icons like the Beatles and Elvis while artists like Brown were relatively unknown to the young Black listener, at least until hip hop came along. It"s important to note all this because another facet about hip hop is that it allowed folks and still allows folks to build upon their musical past... The Brown sampling phenomenom in the mid-late 80s was the result of younger people reflecting their musical past. Most of the artist putting out records at this time were from New York and James Brown was not only an artist that mom and dad grooved to, but it was an artist that their older brothers and sisters grooved to in the late 70s when block parties were common place and hip hop was still in its embryo stages... The break beats that could be found within the grooves of James Brown records were the sounds that really set off these early hip hop jams.

So what does all this have to do with p-funk and its relationship to hip hop? Well one of the great things about hip hop is that it has always been an easily accessible form of expression with each participant being able to bring into the fold their own experiences and musical background So while brothers back east during the late 80s were building off their musical experiences involving James Brown and hip hop culture dating back to the late 70s, brothers out west who were just starting to release hip hop records were bringing a whole other set of musical experiences to the table.
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Much of it centered around artists like George Clinton, Bootsy Collins George Duke and Roger & Zapp to name a few. Simply put, brothers out west brought p-funk to the hip hop round table. Now upon reading this there are a lot of folks who are immediately gonna reach back into time and point to the p-funk style hip hop music of EPMD, especially since they dropped the '88 classic tune "You Gots To Chill" which looped the now infamous "More Bounce To The Ounce" beat. Many rap fans consider this jam to be the first record to incorporate a p-funk. sample. In addition, these same rap fans may be quick to point out that cuts like "Knee Deep" and "More Bounce To The Ounce" were staple items in a b-boy's record crates. Back in the days, many a dj cut up these tracks while an emcee flowed. And while it's safe to say that Erik & Parrish earned their spot in the history books with "You Gots To Chill", they weren't the first to utilize music from the p-funk treasure chests... In addition, EPMD's usage didn't reflect the special relation and love the San Francisco / Oakland Bay Area had for funk.

Ricky Vincent better known as the Uhuru Maggot is a Bay Area music historian who earned his stripes during the 80s for his radio work on KALX, UC Berkeley's college station... and can now be heard every Friday on KPFA 94.1 FM... Vincent has not only chronolized funk music through his History Of Funk radio shows, but he has written his doctorate thesis on the genre..and has now just penned a book for St Martin's Press with an intro from George Clinton himself. This work will undoubtly be a definitive and comprehensive work on this facet of Black music... In a recent interview where Vincent was asked about the Bay Area's love for funk and its relationship to hip hop, he broke things down and explained that there has always been a deep seeded love affair with -funk ..He noted that George Clinton has always claimed there was something 'heavy' about the Bay Area funkateers.. Vincent noted that so involved was that relationship that Clinton recorded part of his live album "P-Funk Earth Tour" right here at the Oakland Coliseum.

This [The Bay Area] was probably the only place that he could capture that strong P-funk vibe If that wasn't enough, Oakland was city where the mothership first landed. This took place in 1976. For those who don't know the mothership was brought back into the forefront when Dr Dre landed it in his video 'Let Me Ride'. Vincent elaborated by noting that the landing of the mothership was a major turning point. It could be interpreted as the second coming of Christ. And furthermore, Vincent explained that there are many facets of the funk as prescribed by George Clinton that are based upon ancient African religion. It encouraged folks to move in a spiritual direction. In fact many of the songs Clinton performed were nothing more than modern day spirituals that were ripe with metaphors that held religious conotations. For example the song 'Flashlight' was really a gospel song which called upon the Lord to shine some light on the 'funk' [hard times] that Black people here in America were experiencing.
The Bay Area's Al Eaton, a veteran producer established himself by being Too Short's early producer. In addition Al had a hand in the production end back in the days for such well known Bay Area acts like Dangerous Dame, Rappin' 4 Tay and E-40 & The Click who were than just starting out their careers. Eaton expounded upon Vincent"s assessment by noting that while p-funk had a strong hold in the Bay Area it wasn't the only funk kickin' up dirt. "It wasn"t just p-funk, but it was the whole musician scene that put the Bay Area on the map, " Eaton noted. Groups like Tower Of Power, Cold Blood, Maze going all the way back to Sly Stone in the late 60s all had big names and helped shape the Bay Area music scene.
"There"s always been a funk thing going on in the Bay Area-It's always been funk base central. There's always been lots of musicians on the crest, who didn"t make it to the big time but yet had names around town." , Eaton pointed out. Funk bands like Johnny Talbert and the Thangs, 2 Things In One and Marvin Holmes and The Uptights were some of the funk bands that immediately came to mind.
Eaton pointed to several factors that may influenced the Bay Area to embrace the funk. First off, many of the musicians who played for these bands back in the late 60s now have kids who are now into hip hop. He also made it known that when he was coming up there was at least 2-3 bands on every block. "Each one was trying to get to the next level and hence it made for a very competitive situaution.", he noted.
Eaton's last reason for the Bay Area's embrace of funk focused on a famous movie entitled The Mack. "It seems like the all Bay Area rappers at one point or another were influenced by The Mack. " , Eaton said. The movie depicted lots of characters- real life players and pimps who many Bay Area artist have directly or indirectly tried to emulate try to emulate. Eaton went on to add that phrases like 'Player's Club' and 'Pimp Of The Year' which were borrowed by SF rapper Rappin' 4 Tay
rappin.jpeg
and Oakland artist Dru Down reflected the raw gritty attitude street vibe often associated with funk. "Funk is here because its always been here", Eaton concluded, "And there's been a lot of musicians laying down the groundwork for years".
Eaton made mention of Sly Stone and spoke about how important he was in developing the funk scene here in the Bay Area... Vincent took it a step further by noting that artists like George Clinton were influenced by Stone who once upon a time ruled the city of Vallejo back in the late 60s-home of funky Bay Area artists like E-40, Potna Deuce, Khayree, Young Lay, Mac Dre and Mac Mall to name a few..Vincent gave Sly props for being the first musician to come out and dress in freaked out ostentatious outfits. This of course was later picked up and mimicked by Clinton and his p-funk mob.."Sly managed to package all the energy of James Brown while embracing the hippie vibe which was pervasive because of the summer of love among other things taking place about that time".

When speaking on the subject of funk and hip hop Bay Area style, no discussion would be complete without talking about the work of Shock G lead rapper and producer for Digital Underground. In late 1987 several months before EPMD hit with their track "You Got's To Chill" Digital Underground made a lot of noise with a hard hittin' song entitled 'Underwater Rimes'. Here Shock incorporated sampled riffs from the Parliament classic 'Aquaboogie' and cleverly weaved all sorts of p-funk like characters and elements into the song, including MC Blowfish. For the most folks it was hard to believe Clinton himself didn't have a hand in the production. Eventually Clinton did come aboard and lend a helpin hand in Digital's second lp 'Sons Of The P'. It was on this lp that Shock felt DU was a head of its time because of their liberal use of the moog synthesizer.. Nowadays artists like Snoop Dogg and Ice Cube have been on hit with songs that utilize this device to provide that buzzin' bassline...
Shock G pointed that funk was heavy all around the country except New York where he spent a lot of time growing up. He went on to explain that there were two things going on in New York City.."First of all, disco had taken off in a big way and hip hop was starting to become big among the younger people. The result of this activity was that New York missed out on the P-funk".
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Shock explained that he made a deliberate attempt to bridge the gap between hip hop and p-funk. He noted that while a lot of his buddies in New York were true to the game with respect to hip hop however, they constantly fronted on George Clinton. Shock's exposure to funk came when he moved down to Florida to stay with his dad. Folks in his house and school were fanatical about p-funk. He began fusing hip hop with George's music out of necessity. "We would try and play some NY based underground break beats like 'Love Is The Message' or 'Dance To The Drummer's Beat' and it they would scare folks off the dance floor." He eventually won them over when he started cutting up p-funk songs...As Shock became engrossed with p-funk he found himself heading out west to the Bay Area because he had heard the vibe for p-funk was not only strong but supportive of the style of music he was trying to create. "One of the reasons I decided to move I to Oakland was because Oakland was putting p-funk on way back...and the vibe was strong..plus it was the only place in the country where they had a radio show dedicated to the funk". Shock of course was referring to the Uhuru Maggot's 'History Of Funk Show'.. Eventually Digital's first singles were dropped on the Uhuru Maggots Show . The first hip hop based show in which Shock dropped DU material was mine on the same station... KALX.
An interesting aspect that Shock brought to light was the fact that he felt that George Clinton was heavy on the Black side with both his concepts and lyrics... "George's music was unselfish and promoted brotherhood... It reminded people of Black festivities and celebrations". Shock also noted that George was very conscious and all about the upliftment of Black people. Originally Digital started off the same way.. In fact their original name was Spice Regime and they were attempting to experiment and become the Black Panthers of hip hop complete with barets and all that. Two things happened that forced DU to switch..One was the emergence of Public Enemy and their baret wearing S1Ws. The second was the overwhelming popularity of Humpty Dance and the character 'Humpty Hump' which force the group to momentarily move away from the conceptual p-funk style vibe that eventually emerged on their second lp 'Sons Of The P'.
 

IllmaticDelta

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...cont

Afrika Bambaataa
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once noted that hip hop was the result of Black music radio not keeping funk alive in New York City... Author Nelson George confirmed that statement in his book the 'Death Of Rhythm & Blues' in which he spoke about Black radio stations diluting the music from the hood with some other stuff that was ultimately designed to appeal to a downtown, hipper, more affluential, [whiter audience] and not the young black and Puerto Rican audience that listened to a radio more than any other ethnic group. By the mid 70s Black music radio in New York wasn't kicking a lot of music across the airwaves that was hitting on point in other parts of the country.. In the late 70s I recall a whole lot of disco songs being played... Brothers from around the way were doing block parties and playing old James Brown, Sly Stone and break beats...while outside New York in places as close as New Haven Connecticutt, brothers were jamming to groups like Fat Larry's Band, The Barkays and Mass Production... For example, I recall hearing jams like 'Fire Cracker' by Mass Production outside the Big Apple, but never really hearing too much if at all within the city's five boroughs... Mean while in places like the Bay Area where hip hop had not really surfaced the grooves put out by these types of groups were the ' phat buttahs ' of the day.

Khayree, Al Eaton, Paris, Shock G and C-Funk are just a few of a long line of artist/producers who have helped keep the funk a strong force in the Bay Area and begin to influence the rest of the hip hop nation. There are still lots of others in these here parts that are making lots of noise with their new brand of funk including E-40 and The Click"s producer Studio Tone, Oakland rap dou/producers, Easki and CMT,
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En Vogue producers Foster & McElroy, George Clinton colloborator and long time funkateer Dave Kaos and SF rap start JT The Bigga Figga. All have come to the hip hop roundtable with funk in their back pocket.
Funk is a Bay Area tradition, loved and embraced amongst a population which is only one or two generations removed from their southern roots. The Bay Area is also a music market place that has long encouraged folks to let themselves go and explore... It has encouraged folks to buck the trends and follow their own musical path. It is no coincidence that the first funk hip hop records have come from the Bay Area.
Props out to DJ Slice and Kool Rock J for samplin" Knee Deep in their 1986/87 classic "Slice It Up". Props to Hammer for incorporating the p-funk in his original version of his 1987 hit "They Put Me In The Mix". Props to Digital Underground for bringing the funk fully back on the scene with "Underwater Rimes". Also props to Dave Kaos cause back in the days.. he did a little cutting and scratchin on some of George Clinton"s records. Props to the die hard funkateers of the Bay Area like The Uhuru Maggot for documenting the funk and keeping the spirit alive . Keep in mind , while there are lots of acts that use funk in their music, in the Bay Area folks live and breath p-funk... from now until the end of time.


Hip Hop And Funk


NYC wasn't really on that type of Funk...
 

IllmaticDelta

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It is a known fact that Jamaica is not Hip Hop but the GOD FATHER of Hip Hop Kool Herc was a Jamaican immigrant? :snoop:

Black Americans in the south in the 1950s were a little pre-occupied with the Klan, Civil rights, and leaving the areas to find work in other cities because they were getting squeezed.....but I'll let you tell it that in a time when communication was poor in this country, that people in the South were toasting and influenced Jamaicans who then influenced Kool Herc :snoop:

Black american radio DJ's/ R&B/Black American Slang did influence Jamaican toasting via radio
 

OnlyInCalifornia

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Black american radio DJ's/ R&B/Black American Slang did influence Jamaican toasting via radio

Um. What black djs were on the PUBLIC AIRWAVES in the 50s breh? In a time when black people couldn't even drink at the same fountain as whites in the South they were given tons of time on the white controlled radio? Don't mix up talking before songs like radio DJs do as 'toasting' because it isnt. That's like saying spoken word is the same as rapping.

Also you are giving credit to white DJs for creating something, just for the record. I'll guess you wiki'd Jamaican toasting and came up with that idea that WHITE RADIO DJs were influencing guys in Jamaica which means that a major part of the foundation of Hip Hop was created by white djs in the 50s.....do you guys just type shyt to type it???? :snoop:
 
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OnlyInCalifornia

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Original sample






Original Sample



Not sure it's an original beat or a sample



Not sure if it's an original or a sample, but the funk rhythms are evident






Original sample



Hmmm ironic that EPMD sampled this song, the same Rap producer that influenced Dr Dre :jbhmm:



Kraftwerk isn't funk. It's a german electronic band. They are way more Daft Punk than they are George Clinton.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Um. What black djs were on the PUBLIC AIRWAVES in the 50s breh?

There were black people on the radio even in the 40's


In a time when black people couldn't even drink at the same fountain as whites in the South they were given tons of time on the white controlled radio?

yes

34QA801.png





Don't mix up talking before songs like radio DJs do as 'toasting' because it isnt. That's like saying spoken word is the same as rapping.

Read the article above and..

More on Jocko, one of the american dj's who was imitated in Jamaica


tKldqrm.jpg


"
Douglas "Jocko" Henderson ranks with Daddy O' Daylie and Hot Rod Hulbert as one of the original rhythm and blues radio disc jockeys. His smooth, swinging, rhymed talkovers were imitated by the jocks of the early rock and roll era, and became one of the major sources for the rap style. Though his influence on hip-hop was crucial, it took an indirect route as the model for the toasts of early Jamaican sound system deejays. Some say that Jocko's syndicated radio shows, beamed into the Caribbean from Miami provided the standard for Jamaican deejays. Another story claims that sound system promoter and record producer Coxsone Dodd encountered Jocko on one his record buying trips to the U.S., and encouraged his dee-jays to imitate Jocko's style. However his influence reached Jamaica, titles like "The Great Wuga Wuga" by Sir Lord Comic and "Ace from Space" by U. Roy were catch phrases directly appropriated from Jocko's bag of verbal tricks. When Kool DJ Herc adapted the Jamaican sound system to New York City party crowds, the stylized public address patter that accompanied his bass heavy program was rooted in Jocko's rhyming jive patter.

Jocko started in radio in the Baltimore of 1950, moving to Philadelphia, where he attained enough momentum to arrange a daily commute to New York for a second shift. It was in New York that he hosted "Jocko's Rocket Ship", a black oriented television dance party show that was the forerunner of "Soul Train". He also made many appearances as an M.C. of rhythm and blues shows and hosted large scale record hops that anticipated ballroom disco shows."

Jocko | Biography & History | AllMusic

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Definition of toasting in Jamaican culture

toasting, chatting, or deejaying is the act of talking or chanting, usually in a monotone melody, over a rhythm or beat by a deejay. The lyrics can be either improvised or pre-written. Toasting has been used in various African traditions, such as griots chanting over a drum beat, as well as in Jamaican music forms, such as dancehall, reggae, ska, dub, and lovers rock. Toasting's mix of talking and chanting may have influenced the development of MCing in US hip hop music. The combination of singing and toasting is known as singjaying.

In the late 1950s deejay toasting was developed by Count Machuki. He conceived the idea from listening to disc jockeys on American radio stations. He would do American jive over the music while selecting and playing R&B music. Deejays like Count Machuki working for producers would play the latest hits on traveling sound systems at parties and add their toasts or vocals to the music. These toasts consisted of comedy, boastful commentaries, chants, half-sung rhymes, rhythmic chants, squeals, screams, and rhymed storytelling.

Definition of "Toasts" in Black American culture

Part of the African American oral tradition is toasting (rhymed folk tales about various mythical folk heroes) and signifiying (Signifying refers to the act of using secret or double meanings of words to either communicate multiple meanings to different audiences, or to trick them. To the leader and chorus of a work song, for example, the term “captain” may be used to indicate discontent, while the overseer of the work simultaneously thinks it’s being used as a matter of respect.). Signifiying also involves taking concepts and situations and redefining them. It is part ingenuity, innovation, adaptation, and style. Stories, ideals, and songs can all be signified.


Traditional African American toasting
Toasting has been part of African American urban tradition since Reconstruction as part of a verbal art tradition, dating back to the griots of Africa. African American stories usually lauds the exploits of the clever and not entirely law-abiding trickster hero (not always human) who uses his wits to defeat his opponents.
Toasters continue the oral tradition by recounting the legends and myths of the community in venues ranging from street corner gatherings, bars, and community centers, to libraries and college campuses. As with oral traditions in general, and with other African American art forms as the blues, toasting uses a mixture of repetition and improvisation.
There are many versions of the best-known toasts, often conflicting in detail. Historically, the toast is very male- oriented, and many toasts contain profane or sexual language, although more family-oriented versions also exist.
Well known toasts include "Shine and the Titanic", "Dolemite", "Stack O Lee", "Jo Jo Gun," and "Signifyin' Monkey."







Also you are giving credit to white DJs for creating something, just for the record. I'll guess you wiki'd Jamaican toasting and came up with that idea that WHITE RADIO DJs were influencing guys in Jamaica which means that a major part of the foundation of Hip Hop was created by white djs in

white dj's never did what became toasting until they were taught by blacks/imitated black american dj's. Read the article I posted
 

IllmaticDelta

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the 50s.....do you guys just type shyt to type it???? :snoop:

50's having black american DJ's is true....american radio stations beamed into jamaica and they took notice and imitated what they heard

:sas2:

Hip To The Jive And Stay Alive: An interview with Count Matchuki

MG: The jive talk that you did – did it just come out of you?


CM: No. To be honest, what gave me that idea, I was walking late one night about a quarter to three somewhere in Denham
Town. And I hear this guy on the radio, some American guy advertising Royal Crown hairdressing. (affecting an American accent) “You see, you’re drying up with this one Johnny , try Royal Crown. When you’re downtown you’re the smartest guy in town when you use Royal Crown and Royal Crown makes you the smartest guy in town.” That deliverance! This guy sound like a machine! A tongue twister! I heard that in 1949 on one of them States stations that was really strong. I hear this guy sing out pon the radio and I just like the sound and I say to myself I think I can do better. I would like to play some recordings and just jive talk like this guy

http://www.dancecrasher.co.uk/interviewsdiscogs/hip-to-the-jive-and-stay-alive/


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Jive Talking and Toasting



“The Jives of Dr. Hepcat” by KVET-AM DJ Albert Lavada Durst, published in 1953.

I was reading Beth Lesser’s amazing Rub-a-Dub Style: The Roots of Modern Dancehall, which is available for free download here, and I found a quotation from Clive Chin that set me off on a wild goose chase through the roots of toasting. I have long had a fascination with the connection between toasting and hip hop and have written about that in this blog before, and presented on it at conference after I had the pleasure of interviewing DJ Kool Herc last year, but I hadn’t thoroughly ventured back to jive–until Beth Lesser.

Clive Chin, writes Lesser, remembers toaster Count Matchuki carrying around a book. “There was one he said he bought out of Beverly’s [record shop] back in the ‘60s. The book was called Jives and it had sort of slangs, slurs in it and he was reading it, looking it over, and he found that it would be something that he could explore and study, so he took that book and it helped him.” Lesser writes that this book of jive may have been a boo, written in 1953, The Jives of Dr. Hepcat, which was published by Albert Lavada Durst, a DJ on KVET-AM in Austin, Texas. This version (read the entire copy here) featured definitions for words and phrases commonly used by jive talking DJs like “threads,” which are clothes; “pad,” for house or apartment; “flip your lid,” for losing one’s balance mentally; and “chill,” to hold up or stop. Durst wrote in the introduction to his book, which sold for 50 cents, “In spinning a platter of some very popular band leader, I would come on something like this: ‘Jackson, here’s that man again, cool, calm, and a solid wig, he is laying a frantic scream that will strictly pad your skull, fall in and dig the happenings.’ Which is to say, the orchestra leader is a real classy singer and has a voice that most people would like. For instance, there was a jam session of topnotch musicians and everything was jumping and you would like to explain it to a hepster. These are the terms to use. ‘Gator take a knock down to those blow tops, who are upping some real crazy riffs and dropping them on a mellow kick and chappie the way they pull their lay hips our ship that they are from the land of razz ma tazz.’


Cab Calloway’s “Hepsters Dictionary: Language of Jive,” 1944 version.

I decided to search further and found there was another popular book of jive written before Dr. Hepcat, although it is likely that Matchuki obtained Durst’s version given the era and the content. But Cab Calloway had his own publication of jive called “Cab Calloway’s Hepster Dictionary: Language of Jive” which was first published in 1939 and then revised to add more words in a 1944 printing. Calloway was the original emcee, the master of ceremonies, the hepcat, who understood jive and brought it to those who wanted to become part of this culture. As frequent band leader at the Cotton Club in front of Duke Ellington’s band during performances that were broadcast all over the continent, and as star in a number of feature films, Calloway brought the language of Harlem, jive, to audiences uneducated in the dialect of the black musicians. He established jive as a form of discourse.


Interior of Cab Calloway’s “Hepsters Dictionary”

Some of the words in these dictionaries, and certainly the word “jive” itself, appear in the toasts of Count Matchuki, Lord Comic, and King Stitt. The style is similar as well, scatting over the music, punctuating the rhythm with verbal percussion, and boasting. Next week I will blog about the jive-talking American DJs like Vernon Winslow, Tommy Smalls, and Douglas Henderson, who influenced the Jamaican toasters since these similarities are fascinating as well.

Jive Talking and Toasting - Foundation SKA

Here is some additional information from Beth Lesser:

Hi Heather,

To continue the conversation from Facebook, this is what Steve Barrow wrote to me about the Hepcat book:
Count Machuki actually told me that he bought the magazine in Beverley’s ice-cream parlour, and that it was called ‘Jive’. Dan Burley did a ‘Jive Dictionary’ too. I used the quote in the ‘Rough Guide’ and in subsequent sleeve notes for Randy’s. Maybe Clive got the info from there ! I asked Count Machuki – where did you get your lyrics from ? and he told me from imitating various styles – even ‘British cockney’ as he called it… Then he said about the magazine called ‘Jive’, from ‘Harlem’, exact words !! Dan Burley turned out to be quite a character, an early ‘nationalist’ type of ideology, played piano, invented ‘skiffle’ [word] and claims to have invented the word ‘bebop’ [perhaps] But quite a few of Chuki’s genartioon looked to ‘harlem’ as the black ‘capital. Junior Tuckers dada was another, the one who wrote the Jamaican national anthem, and of course all the soundmen who could travel to the States in late 40s early 50s – Dodd, and Edwards in particular. They dug all that slang and imagery.


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Jive Talking and Toasting part two

Last week I wrote about the connection between toasting and jive talking from Cab Calloway and Albert Lavada Hurst, which writer and historian Beth Lesser brought my attention to through her work. This week I continue this connection between the jive talking DJs in America and toasters like Count Matchuki, Sir Lord Comic, and King Stitt and I focus on a few of the key DJs during the 1950s.


Dr. Daddy O

One of these jive-talking DJs was Vernon Winslow who broadcast his show, “Jam, Jive, ‘n’ Gumbo,” from New Orleans with his character, “Dr. Daddy O,” and partner DJ Duke Thiele who portrayed the character of “Poppa Stoppa.” Winslow explains, “Poppa Stoppa was the name I came up with. It came from the rhyme and rap that folks in the street were using in New Orleans. Poppa Stoppa’s language was for insiders.”


Vernon Winslow, also known as Dr. Daddy O, was the first African-American disc jockey.



Tommy Smalls was a DJ in New York known as “Dr. Jive,” though he got his start in Savannah, Georgia. His catch phrase was, “Sit back and relax and enjoy the wax. From three-oh-five to five-three-oh, it’s the Dr. Jive show.” He was known as the “Mayor of Harlem” and unfortunately, in 1960 he was one of the DJs arrested, along with Alan Freed, in the payola scandal.


Tommy Smalls plants a kiss on Dinah Washington.


Dr. Jive



And Douglas Henderson, known as “Jocko” broadcast from a number of cities with his show, “Rocket Ship.” Henderson was also known as the “Ace from Outta Space.”Author Bill Brewster writes of Henderson: “Using a rocket ship blast-off to open proceedings, and introducing records with more rocket engines and ‘Higher, higher, higher…’ Jocko conducted his whole show as if he was a good-rocking rhythmonaut. ‘Great gugga mugga shooga booga’ he’d exclaim, along with plenty of ‘Daddios.’ ‘From way up here in the stratosphere, we gonna holler mighty loud and clear ee-tiddy-o and a bo, and I’m back on the scene with the record machine, saying oo-pappa-do and how do you do?”


The Ace from Outta Space, Douglas Henderson



Notice any similarity between the jive talking of these DJs and the toasts of Lord Comic and Count Matchuki? Some of Matchuki’s toasts have the same language as the jive of these DJs. Matchuki’s toast include “When I dig, I dig for mommy, I dig for daddy, I dig for everybody,” and “It’s you I love and not another, you may change but I will never,” as well as, “If you dig my jive / you’re cool and very much alive / Everybody all round town / Matchuki’s the reason why I shake it down / When it comes to jive / You can’t whip him with no stick.”

Count Matchuki, born Winston Cooper in 1934, is widely considered the first toaster. He was raised in a family that had more money than others so he grew up with two gramophones in the home and was exposed to swing, jazz, bebop, and rhythm & blues. He says that he got the idea to begin toasting over records after hearing American radio. He told this to Mark Gorney and Michael Turner as they recount in a 1996 issue of Beat Magazine. “I was walking late one night about a quarter to three. Somewhere in Denham Town. And I hear this guy on the radio, some American guy advertising Royal Crown Hair Dressing. ‘You see you’re drying up with this one, Johnny, try Royal Crown. When you’re downtown you’re the smartest guy in town, when you use Royal Crown and Royal Crown make you the smartest guy in town.’ That deliverance! This guy sound like a machine! A tongue-twister! I heard that in 1949. On one of them States stations that was really strong. I hear this guy sing out ‘pon the radio and I just like the sound. And I say, I think I can do better. I’d like to play some recordings and just jive talk like this guy.”


Count Matchuki

Sir Lord Comic, whose real name was Percival Wauchope, began as a dancer, a “legs man.” He began toasting for Admiral Deans’ sound system on Maxwell Avenue in 1959 and his first song was a Len Hope tune called “Hop, Skip, and Jump.” In Howard Johnson and Jim Pines’ book, Reggae: Deep Roots Music, Sir Lord Comic recalls, “When the tune started into about the fourth groove I says, ‘Breaks!’ and when I say ‘Breaks’ I have all eyes at the amplifier, y’know. And I says, ‘You love the life you live, you live the life you love. This is Lord Comic.’ The night was exciting, very exciting” (Johnson Pines 72). Lord Comic’s first toast, he says, was, “Now we’ll give you the scene, you got to be real keen. And me no jelly bean. Sir Lord Comic answer his spinning wheel appeal, from his record machine. Stick around, be no clown. See what the boss is puttin’ down.”


Sir Lord Comic

One article in the Daily Gleaner on May 1, 1964 advertised Sir Lord Comic’s performance at the Glass Bucket Club, an upscale establishment. “Sir Lord Comic will be at the controls with his authentic sound system calls,” it stated. Some of his recorded songs include “Ska-ing West,” “The Great Wuga Wuga,” “Rhythm Rebellion,” “Jack of My Trade,” and “Four Seasons of the Year,” among a few others. Sir Lord Comic’s “The Great Wuga Wuga” was likely inspired by the jive talk of Douglas “Jocko” Henderson who spoke of the “great gugga mugga.” Additionally, Henderson’s show, “Rocket Ship,” became a song recorded by the Skatalites with Sir Lord Comic toasting over the instrumentals, calling out the title of the song to begin the instrumentals and continuing with his percussive techniques.

Jive Talking and Toasting part two - Foundation SKA
 

UpAndComing

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Kraftwerk isn't funk. It's a german electronic band. They are way more Daft Punk than they are George Clinton.

- Kraftwerk is ElectroFunk, The point you brought up that Dr Dre was using Electro Funk in 1984 and was using it before anyone in Hip Hop, which is false
-The sample for "Looking for a Perfect beat" no doubt Electro Funk
- The last two samples I posted "Grandmaster Flash SuperRapping" and The Treacherous Three "A New Rap Language" is a more classic funk sample, similar to what George Clinton and other 70s funk sounds like
- Those last two samples were about a decade before Dr Dre began sampling 70s funk in the early 90s :sas2:
 

Stir Fry

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NY is the WOAT when it comes to self depreciating humor. This might not even be relevant to this conversation but I never understood why is so hard to have even just a little laugh at themselves once and a while.
 

OnlyInCalifornia

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- Kraftwerk is ElectroFunk, The point you brought up that Dr Dre was using Electro Funk in 1984 and was using it before anyone in Hip Hop, which is false
-The sample for "Looking for a Perfect beat" no doubt Electro Funk
- The last two samples I posted "Grandmaster Flash SuperRapping" and The Treacherous Three "A New Rap Language" is a more classic funk sample, similar to what George Clinton and other 70s funk sounds like
- Those last two samples were about a decade before Dr Dre began sampling 70s funk in the early 90s :sas2:

Kraftwerk is NOT electro-funk. It is electronic music. Have you listened to their catalog?

This has zero elements of funk and since they were using heavy electronic based instruments/sounds, where was the SOUL that made funk what it is? Wasn't there. Not electro funk. Influencer sure but they themselves didn't make Electro-funk.



I never said no one was doing electro funk before Dr Dre and I never said Dr Dre was the first person to ever sample funk records. So don't twist my words then argue with yourself. I said Dr Dre was already sampling funk before Erick Sermon and EPMD. Which he was. Looking for the perfect beat sampling an electronic song has nothing to do with that.

You guys are arguing a point that already has been proven wrong. The Eastcoast did not orignate the gangsta-funk sound :snoop:
 

FruitOfTheVale

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^ this came out somewhere between 82 and 83



^Motorcycle Mike (Oakland) dropped this in 81

I don't see where y'all get the idea EPMD brought funk to hip hop.
 

OnlyInCalifornia

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I'll get to the rest to address what you said but what you linked had ZERO southern DJs in it. They were in Philly and New York.

So no, there wasn't a ton of black DJs in the South like I said. The syndication from MIAMI (not the South) via the major cities on the eastcoast could be beamed to the Carribean.

As far as rhyming in commercials, he wasn't the first to do that. That was done by others prior to that Now they clearly got it from Coxsone hearing him on the radio when he was in America but he wasn't the originator of it. What he did was add some slang and his own style to it but again, if you want to say Kool Herc got it directly from him then you have to conceed he got the idea from others himself.



 
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