ESPN Ranks the Top 25 NBA Players
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Gil Scott-Heroin
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I'm not gonna argue about players that haven't played in decades (I already covered Nash, go back and read), because like I said, THERE'S NO PLACE FOR THAT TERM IN TODAY'S GAME - THE POSITION HAS EVOLVED, it's a word that has been lost in translation and basically it holds no meaning in measuring PGs of today. If you look at the first statement of mine in my previous post, you'll see I put "At his core"; scouts compared his game to other 'pure-PGs' in the NBA at the time and said he could easily adapt between a 'scoring mentality and passing mentality'. Nothing has changed since then, except for the fact he was drafted by a lottery team and he has been REQUIRED to pick up added x-amount of workload, ever since, in order for them to be successful. If the Celtics drafted him, he wouldn't have had the workload he's had the last 3-4 seasons, with Pierce, Allen and Garnett, he would be more of a facilitator. He wouldn't have been able to do that on the Bulls. A criticism of mine as well as other Bulls fans on the forum were that this season he was too mindful of trying to get his team-mates involved early and plays would run through Rip Hamilton; leaving the offense stagnant and leading to nowhere. That's because the offense runs smoother and more efficient when he has a scoring mentality - opening up passing lanes, drawing double-teams, hedges. Because the Bulls don't have the offensive-weapons to run it any other way.You tell me you're not gonna argue about players that haven't played in decades (of the 3 I asked you about Stockton retired in the 2000's and Nash is still playing), but you gonna use Rose's and CP3's HS stats to attempt to make your point?What are they now? Today in 2012? HS? Are you serious? Didn't Lebron play pg in HS? Should we add him to the convo?
The '11 Miami heat series was evidence of this - Heat solely focused on shutting him down and the Bulls didn't know what to do.
The high school comparison(s) were that Rose is still the player, ain't nothing changed. He still plays the PG position, like he has always done.
Of course there's no unquestionable proof, it's a hypothetical statement, a situation we shall never know. But don't be this dumb, use your head.
I don't need to tell you that Rose in his rookie season led his team to a seven game series against the reigning NBA champions (Celtics) in '08. I don't need to tell you that Rose tied Kareem's record for most points by a rookie in his playoff debut.
***Rondo's #'s vs Lakers (07-08 finals = champions) - 37% FG, 6 assists and 9 points
Rondo's #'s vs Magic (08-09 second round) - 37%, 8 assists and 14 points
Rondo's #'s vs Lakers (09-10 finals) - 45% FG, 7 assists and 13 points
Rondo's #'s vs Heat (10-11 second round) - 44%, 7 assists and 10 points
Hardly #'s that jump out at the page at you and certainly aren't #'s that suggest Rose isn't capable of producing. You're gonna sit there and tell me that all those seasons, Celtics wouldn't have had a better chance at winning championships if they had Rose instead of Rondo?
I didn't really peep the bolded the 1st time. So what is it you believe? 1st you saying "PURE PG" is a term that masks flaws and inabilities in certain players, then you say Rose has the ability to slide between both. Which is it playboy? Sometimes D Rose needs his flaws covered and sometimes he doesnt?
HE CAN PLAY BOTH ROLES!
This is why we go back to my statement of - the term has been LOST IN TRANSLATION. First Rose's game is reminiscent of a 'pure point guard' to now he is the TOTAL opposite - why is that? It's not like those attributes of his have suddenly been thrown in the bushes, NAW, like I said, a different role has been required from him for the Bulls. And again, if he was on that Celtics team, his ROLE would be entirely different, he wouldn't be averaging 17-20 shots a game with Garnett, Allen and Pierce. He wouldn't be averaging 25 points a game. His PPG would be down and his APG would be up. How he's looked at RIGHT NOW would be entirely different, if he was on the Celtics team since his league inception - in terms of being a 'pure point guard'.
Just like life - different situations require different attributes/roles. Just because they're not on show the majority of the time, doesn't mean they're not there.
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
deron is so underrated.
Oh absolutely. I know it's not the majority opinion, but this is the line of thinking that some folk have about d-will -
Bilz
Superstar
They're maybe 4, 5 players tops currently in the entire NBA who could realistically put up 28 5 and 5 a season in any circumstance...all of them are among the absolute best players in the league...none of them are Duncan/Garnet level players who are drastically reduced players from what they used to be...this is where people go from just honest critics, to blatant haters...
In the context of "people are just rating kobe highly off the strength of nostalgia, when in reality he's old and washed like Duncan"...yes being a top MVP candidate is relevant....other players are have had injuries, none of the ones you listed are coming of the backs of ACL surgery...even the most positive forecasts of Rose's recovery don't predict he comes back this year and is immediately back to 100% what he was before the injury, and back to the level he was in his MVP season...there's not a lot of valid reasoning in putting Rose at #5
The 28-5-5 standard is biased toward scoring guards. How about the big men that can put up 20-10 statlines that Kobe can't do? Besides, 5 assists isn't a big number for anyone who is handling the ball regularly and 5 rebounds isn't a big number for anyone period. That leaves us with the 28 points and there are a lot more than 4 or 5 players that can average 28 points if they got 23 shots a game. All of the guys ranked 1-5 on the list, Wade, Westbrook, Love, Monta Ellis, Melo, Dirk, Deron, etc. can all do it without question. Sure some guys might be screwing up their team's offense by taking that many shots but to be honest, I don't think Kobe is any different.
And if you're going to quote me, at least get my quote right. The comparison of Duncan, Kobe, and KG is that they are all ranked higher than they should be because of hardware from the past. Younger players that are currently better but don't have the same resume and hardware are ranked below them. If you want to make the point that Kobe is better than Duncan and KG right now, congratulations but no one was saying otherwise.
you have to look at quality of shots, Kobe Bryant IS THE ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY, to have to take shots against 3-4 defenders because teams are SCARED TO DEATH of the black mamba. EVERY SHOT in his career had atleast 2 guys on him.
Durant get's spoonfed open shots by his top notch penetrating PG playing pick and roll all game. Imagine Kobe Bryant getting all the open looks KD get's, he would shoot 65% easily and average 42 a night.
Lebron is 6'10 279, runs a 4.1 40 and has a 56inch vertical. Imagine Kobe with those measurements, he would break 50 a night easy. Not to mention lebron plays with sure fire hall of famers like d wade, chris bosh, and ray allen. While Kobe plays with scrubs like Pau Gasol, Smush Parker, Andrew Bynum, and prime shaq. He's also coached by scrub ass phil jackson and his kobe bryant stopper offense.
You put kobe on that 2011 bulls team and they win 70 games and the title. Kobe would kill to play with stars like boozer, deng and Noah and be coached by Thibbs
god shamgod
Veteran
^
at 1st I thought you were serious.That's a typical kobe stan post too
at 1st I thought you were serious.That's a typical kobe stan post too
Chris Paul is not on Derrick Rose' level.
when healthy, its like this
1. LeBron
2. Rose
3. Durant
4. Dwight
5. Kobe
6. Wade
7. Deron Williams
8. Carmelo
9. Dirk
10. Kevin Love
when healthy, its like this
1. LeBron
2. Rose
3. Durant
4. Dwight
5. Kobe
6. Wade
7. Deron Williams
8. Carmelo
9. Dirk
10. Kevin Love
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
god shamgod
Veteran
You're right he's better than derrick rose in every aspect of playing pg except dunking/catchin alley opps
Long Live The Kane
Tyrant Titan
The point is that he's still one of the most productive players in the league...28 5 5 isn't biased towards "scoring guards", it's biased towards elite level wings with complete skill sets... of which, there are scant few in the league...it is an impressive stat line no matter how you cut it...and he put it up last season, there is no "nostalgia" required...that's the difference between him and Duncan and KG, if they were still putting up 23pt 12rb 2blk seasons they'd be higher...this asinine "oh damn near anybody could put up 28pts 5rb 5ast a game if they could produce as many makable shots, handle the ball and distribute, and possessed the size and craftiness enough to yank boards as much as kobe goes" stuff is some silly ass shyt logic from the early-mid 2000s geeks with knowledge of the game that revolves around trying to discredit kobe came up with...I've never seen people so shamelessly try to explain away greatness like kobe haters ever, in of all of human endeavor Rose did not have a better season than Kobe did last year, that isn't "nostalgia based on past achievements and previous legend" or no other bullshyt....it's based on what both did on the floor during the duration of the entire season last year...
You're right he's better than derrick rose in every aspect of playing pg except dunking/catchin alley opps
Chris Paul is just another Rajan Rondo,,, Derrick Rose is Lebron like, in terms of being feared and un-guardable.
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god shamgod
Veteran
Dog you aint gotta post that game I watched it live on channel 9
Were talkin about a cat who averaged 12 assists for a season and 2.5 turnovers a game(rose has never came close to double digit assists ONCE) someone who dropped 33 points and 14 assists in a playoff game who hits his clutch ft's and can hit mid range jumpers,3's the whole 9.Paul is the prototype pg
Chris paul would have joakim noah puttin up 15-16 a game and boozer lookin like the utah jazz all star booz.Rose my boy I've watched him since simeon he isnt better a pg than rondo,d will,paul or nash
who cares about "point guard" Whos the better PLAYER?
What seperates Rose from the D-Wills, CP3, Rondo, Nash's of the world (besides the obvious talent) is that Rose has that Kobe-like Killer instinct, he's cut from the cloth of the old school, he works hard, and is damn near un-guardable.
these other nikkas is too busy tryna build there "brand" instead of their game..
Bilz
Superstar
Rose did not have a better season than Kobe did last year, that isn't "nostalgia based on past achievements and previous legend" or no other bullshyt....it's based on what both did on the floor during the duration of the entire season last year...
But Kobe isn't putting up 20-10 statlines like Dwight, Kevin Love, and Blake Griffin. Should he be behind all three of them because he can't do that? That's the thing, you're giving increased importance to a particular statline that Kobe can do and dismissing the ones that he can't do.
If you want a true ranking of where players are, give some of the other great players the same situation Kobe had (ultimate green light, 23 shot attempts a game, point guard responsibilities) and they can match what he did. Just like in the olympics when Kobe's responsibilities were decreased, he was statistically outshined by no name dudes from other countries who got more touches. It doesn't make those guys better in my mind, but according to your logic, maybe it does.
If all other things are equal, I would take pre-injury Rose over current Kobe and it wouldn't be a tough decision. He's younger, quicker, gets to the basket better, shoots 3's better, passes better. Kobe's just beats him in shot volume. The only thing that makes the selection tough is Rose's ACL injury and the uncertainty that he'll be the same player but with each year that ticks by with Kobe, there is uncertainty with him as well.