Fans of Roman history enter

[Trajan]

If my avi and name didn't give it away, I'm a big fan of ancient history particularly Ancient Rome. Now I know it's common to make comparisons between America and the Roman empire but when all the populism of Trump reached fever pitch it reminded me of the Gracchi Brothers of the late Roman Republic. Now for those of you who don't know:

The Gracchi brothers were famous Roman political figures who radically changed the face of politics in the Roman Republic starting around 133 BC. They discarded political norms, openly flouting tradition. They regularly circumvented the Senate to get their way and introduced the concept of mob rule as a higher source of authority than the letter of the law. The Gracchi brothers were populist, popular, and naturally alienated the political establishment of their time.

They founded the grouping ''The Populares'' which favoured the cause of the plebeians (the commoners), particularly the urban poor. Hence the modern terms ''populist'' and ''populism''. They would appeal directly to the mob to get their way and with the precedents they set, are attributed with having paved the way for the fall of the Roman Republic and the birth of the age of the Emperors.

I wanted to know if anyone else made the connection between Trump and the Gracchi and found an article from a site which studies organisational life cycles. They did a comparison and I was

Lifecycle Stage – Infancy

The Roman Republic was founded with the overthrowing of its king. The early Roman Republic was fragile and barely able to defend itself from opportunistic sovereigns who did not believe that a city state could remain strong without a king.

The American Republic was founded with a war of independence from its King in 1776. The early Republic had a weak central body. In 1812, the fragile Republic would have to do battle again to assert its independence from another opportunistic king.

Lifecycle Stage – Go-Go

The Roman Republic gained control of much of southern Italy through military conquest. It was through these battles that the formidable Roman military was forged.

“From sea to shining sea,” the USA achieved its “manifest destiny,” with the blood of pioneers and the ingenuity that ushered in the railroad, the telegraph, the combustion engine and more. This ingenuity would be the foundation upon which the nation would grow.

Lifecycle Stage – Adolescence

The Roman Republic had a power struggle between the Plebeians and the higher classes which peaked with the Secession of the Plebeians and resulted with the 12 Tables. The 12 Tables established the rule of law as being separate from the whims of a few rich men.

The American Republic had a power struggle between State and Federal governments. This struggle, which included a Civil War, established the supremacy of Federal law over State law.

Lifecycle Stage – Prime + Stable

The Roman Republic hit its peak when it defeated its greatest rival, Carthage.

The American Republic hit its peak when it defeated the Nazis and the Soviet Union.

Lifecycle Stage – Aristocracy

The Roman Republic entered the Aristocracy Stage when politicians began to put their own self interests ahead of the greater interests of the Republic. Conflicting interests of senators and between the ever more polarized social classes froze the gears of government.

The American Republic entered Aristocracy for similar reasons. The USA was in Aristocracy as late as 2007. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it,” could summarize George W. Bush’s approach to governance. This allowed problems to fester and turn into crisis.

Lifecycle Stage – Recrimination

The corrosion of the Roman governance system created the space where the Gracchi brothers and their populist rhetoric could emerge to overturn the political establishment.

The USA entered the Recrimination stage after the financial crisis of 2008. In the very next election cycle a high number of incumbents were unseated and new phenomena, like Super PACs and the Tea Party, emerged.

Donald Trump, The Gracchi Brothers, and the Fall of the Roman Republic – Dr. Ichak Adizes



This guy did a good job comparing them

 

[Trajan]

What other factors contributed to the fall of the Roman Republic into monarchy? What signs should the USA watch for?

- Emergence of cult of personality political leaders;

- General deterioration in the level of trust and respect among political leaders;

- Super wealthy using own money to influence likely voters;

- Use of referendums to bypass the senate;

- Disregard for the sanctity or authority of a Governing Office;

- Flouting of political tradition, like term limits;

- Emergence of a privatized military;

- Emergence of mob rule as a greater political force then the rule of law;

- Use of violence to achieve political ends;

- Loss of the rule of law;

- Proscription and counter proscriptions,

- The emergence of a new political system.

It is also important to note that it is not about Donald Trump, but rather the Lifecycle stage. He is only a sign of the times. Had Donald Trump run in the 2000 Election cycle, with Bush and Gore, would he have had the same traction? Alternatively, had he not run for president in this election cycle, would some other candidate assume the mantle of the Gracchi?

Cruz?… Sanders?…

 

[714562]

How did I know this would be a "let's compare Rome to the United States" thread?

If you're interested in Roman History, you should probably do better than "www.adizes.com," which appears to be a gimmicky management consulting site.

 

[Trajan]

How did I know this would be a "let's compare Rome to the United States" thread?

If you're interested in Roman History, you should probably do better than "www.adizes.com," which appears to be a gimmicky management consulting site.

STFU.

The OP clearly said I was thinking of the parallels and searched for others with this view. His analysis despite what he does for a job was very interesting. I obviously got my Roman history from elsewhere if I was able to make the connection in the first place.

Either discuss the matter at hand or get the fukk out the thread punk.

 

[Trajan]

The precursor to the fall of the republic

 

[Robbie3000]

Interesting.

 

[Sukairain]

Yo, don't be comparing the Gracchi with Trump! They circumvented the Senate because as Tribune of the Plebs you were allowed to veto. They had full legal authority to do everything that they tried. Tribune was up there with consul as among the most powerful offices in Rome.

Moreover the Gracchi were good men. Their aim was to redistribute everything Rome had gained from its wars of conquest - the land, the wealth - to the people, from the hands of the Equestrian and Patrician elite classes to the Plebeian masses. A much more accurate comparison would to the Gracchi would be Che Guevara or Bernie Sanders, heroes of the people. Not self-centred egotists like Trump who could give less of a fukk about anyone other than himself.

 

[Sukairain]

The Gracchus brothers, Tiberius and Gaius, were Romans who both served as tribunes in the late 2nd century BC. They attempted to pass land reform legislation that would redistribute the major aristocratic landholdings among the urban poor and veterans

Trump ain't fixing to redistribute shyt, unless it's taking what belongs to the people and building a hotel or a casino on it

 

[714562]

I obviously got my Roman history from elsewhere if I was able to make the connection in the first place.

Yeah, Wikipedia.

If you want to start a history thread, then start a real one. Don't start a pop-history "are we the Roman Empire" thread.

 

[Sinnerman]

I'm actually reading "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"(long fukking book)

Would you say that someone like Sulla was as instrumental as the Gracchi brothers in terms of bringing in the era of the emperors?(Sulla's dictatorship being the inspiration for Julius Caesar, then Caesar Octavian following him)

I personally don't think that Trump is either of them, nor do I think the US is like Rome, but I could be wrong

 

[Trajan]

Yo, don't be comparing the Gracchi with Trump! They circumvented the Senate because as Tribune of the Plebs you were allowed to veto. They had full legal authority to do everything that they tried. Tribune was up there with consul as among the most powerful offices in Rome.

Moreover the Gracchi were good men. Their aim was to redistribute everything Rome had gained from its wars of conquest - the land, the wealth - to the people, from the hands of the Equestrian and Patrician elite classes to the Plebeian masses. A much more accurate comparison would to the Gracchi would be Che Guevara or Bernie Sanders, heroes of the people. Not self-centred egotists like Trump who could give less of a fukk about anyone other than himself.

Trump ain't fixing to redistribute shyt, unless it's taking what belongs to the people and building a hotel or a casino on it

It's a rough analogy not perfect reincarnation. It's more so pointing at the appeal directly to the mob.

 

[Sukairain]

I'm actually reading "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"(long fukking book)

Would you say that someone like Sulla was as instrumental as the Gracchi brothers in terms of bringing in the era of the emperors?(Sulla's dictatorship being the inspiration for Julius Caesar, then Caesar Octavian following him)

I personally don't think that Trump is either of them, nor do I think the US is like Rome, but I could be wrong

The collapse of the Republic started when the Gracchi were lynched. Tribunes were supposed to be sacrosanct, literally physically untouchable. But more than that blatant violation of sacred religious law (remember, the Republic itself was like a god to these people), it legitimise using violence against your political enemies. From there it was only a matter of time before dudes started using entire armies to enforce their will.

 

[Sukairain]

It's a rough analogy not perfect reincarnation. It's more so pointing at the appeal directly to the mob.

I really like the Gracchi, so it makes me to see them compared with Trump

 

[Shogun]

Yo, don't be comparing the Gracchi with Trump! They circumvented the Senate because as Tribune of the Plebs you were allowed to veto. They had full legal authority to do everything that they tried. Tribune was up there with consul as among the most powerful offices in Rome.

Moreover the Gracchi were good men. Their aim was to redistribute everything Rome had gained from its wars of conquest - the land, the wealth - to the people, from the hands of the Equestrian and Patrician elite classes to the Plebeian masses. A much more accurate comparison would to the Gracchi would be Che Guevara or Bernie Sanders, heroes of the people. Not self-centred egotists like Trump who could give less of a fukk about anyone other than himself.

That's making a lot of assumptions about men who lived 2 thousand years ago. How can you say for sure that they weren't garnering populist support to exploit a loophole in the Roman republican system which had never before been exploited to that extent? Considering the extreme reverence for tradition that Roman society as a whole commonly displayed, it stands to reason that Tiberius and Gaius would have needed to appeal to a populist agenda if they were going to successfully upset the traditional way of things to increase their own personal political capital to that of a patrician senator (which, by definition, they would never otherwise have been able to do).

 

[Trajan]

I'm actually reading "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"(long fukking book)

Would you say that someone like Sulla was as instrumental as the Gracchi brothers in terms of bringing in the era of the emperors?(Sulla's dictatorship being the inspiration for Julius Caesar, then Caesar Octavian following him)

I personally don't think that Trump is either of them, nor do I think the US is like Rome, but I could be wrong

Definitely. He broke the taboo and laid the blueprint for a new generation that was watching like Pompey and Ceaser.