theworldismine13
God Emperor of SOHH
The Roman republic died because the rule of law died, so far trump hasn't done anything outside of the rule law, but it's only been 2 weeks so we will see
Fans of Roman history enter
- Thread starter Trajan
- Start date
Some would argue that the law was founded on social inequality which stained following the Marian reforms. In other words, the Republic died as a result of trying to achieve greater "republicanism".
Where I see a flaw in the theory is that Tump may have appealed to populism but he certainly didn't achieve it amongst the nation as a whole. The popular vote and approval rating thing speaks to that.
Trajan
Veteran
That's the thing. The Gracchis and the generation that followed was the precursor to the fall. With the power of hindsight we can kind of see where things begin to fall apart. But for the people at the time it was probably an incremental change. Trump might not suddenly morph into a dictator but if his administration openly begins to flout the rules then it lays the ground for someone in the coming generation to do so.
They discarded political norms, openly flouting tradition. They regularly circumvented the Senate to get their way and introduced the concept of mob rule as a higher source of authority than the letter of the law. The Gracchi brothers were populist, popular, and naturally alienated the political establishment of their time.
Like you said, we're only two weeks in but they're talking about the media ''keeping its mouth shut'' ...freedom of the press? Top generals being removed from NSC to make way for Bannon. Ruling by executive order and reports of law enforcement ignoring judges and elected officials to implement Trump's decree. Threatening to cut funding to university after people protested far-right activist.
Well that's the thing with history. shyt happens. Proof is hard to come by. What we do know for sure is that he broke no law or established custom in attempting to pass his land reform. Bypassing the Senate was not illegal or untraditional, it was however a declaration that the Gracchi didn't care what the elite thought about the reform and as such an insult.
I really don't think their personal capital needed any enriching. Tribune outranked senator. They had more power than 99% of Patricians and Equestrians by virtue of being Tribunes. The whole point of the office was to contain and prevent the higher orders from commandeering the Republic. Apart from consul (whose decisions were subject to tribune's veto anyway), you couldn't get any higher without being dictators-for-life, and if anybody thinks the Gracchi had ambitions like that, then it's an enormous reach.
Not necessarily a fan of roman history but Caligula was an interesting specimen 
DonKnock
KPJ Gonna Save Us
I made a similar analogy to a family friend who supported Hillary strongly in the primaries.
My case was that what led to the fall of Rome in terms of their executive branch was Military leaders serving as executive, and political families. We had military leaders as president (GW, Jackson, W.H. Harrison, Pierce, Taylor, Johnson, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, B. Harrison, Eisenhower) and have had political families (Adams, Harrisons, Roosevelts, Bushes, Madison/Taylor, and nearly 2 Clintons)
Political families lead to consolidation of power and wealth and often rule based on birthright rather than merit. We saw that with Clinton where she seemingly assumed it was her turn to govern.
Military leaders as executives tend to increase military spending and put less emphasis on other critical elements of infrastructure and public policy.
When these two elements merge you have elitist, entitled, and underqualified to incompetent leaders; with a large military, low perceived duty to the citizens, and distorted view of corruption due to frequent exposure.
After so long of this, the wealth inequality becomes massive and people finally realize that they are getting the short end of the stick. It opens the door for a populist, like Bernie, or populist fraud, like Trump.
I've heard Clodius compared to Trump
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9659660
My case was that what led to the fall of Rome in terms of their executive branch was Military leaders serving as executive, and political families. We had military leaders as president (GW, Jackson, W.H. Harrison, Pierce, Taylor, Johnson, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, B. Harrison, Eisenhower) and have had political families (Adams, Harrisons, Roosevelts, Bushes, Madison/Taylor, and nearly 2 Clintons)
FDR was distantly related to a total of 11 U.S. presidents, 5 by blood and 6 by marriage: John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Ulysses Grant, William Henry Harrison, Benjamin Harrison, James Madison, Theodore Roosevelt, William Taft, Zachary Taylor, Martin Van Buren, and George Washington.
Political families lead to consolidation of power and wealth and often rule based on birthright rather than merit. We saw that with Clinton where she seemingly assumed it was her turn to govern.
Military leaders as executives tend to increase military spending and put less emphasis on other critical elements of infrastructure and public policy.
When these two elements merge you have elitist, entitled, and underqualified to incompetent leaders; with a large military, low perceived duty to the citizens, and distorted view of corruption due to frequent exposure.
After so long of this, the wealth inequality becomes massive and people finally realize that they are getting the short end of the stick. It opens the door for a populist, like Bernie, or populist fraud, like Trump.
I've heard Clodius compared to Trump
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9659660
everything dies, why would america be any different, this is the end, will you go down with it or are you smart enough to jump ship
Dan Carlin spent a good amount of time covering the Gracchi brothers on his history of Rome podcasts.
i listened to it a long time ago but i remember the overall ideas that go along with them.
if you are a fan of Roman history then i highly suggest checking out Dan Carlin's take on it.
Hardcore History 34-39 – Death Throes of the Republic Series
each episode is at least 3 hours long and well worth the price.
that's over 18 hours of informative and entertaining spoken history of Rome from it's birth to it's fall.
i say enough good things about it.
i listened to it a long time ago but i remember the overall ideas that go along with them.
if you are a fan of Roman history then i highly suggest checking out Dan Carlin's take on it.
Hardcore History 34-39 – Death Throes of the Republic Series
each episode is at least 3 hours long and well worth the price.
that's over 18 hours of informative and entertaining spoken history of Rome from it's birth to it's fall.
i say enough good things about it.
Trajan
Veteran
Good drop breh. I'm going to check out that article.
Yh I listened to it a long time ago. I have many of his podcasts. GOAT podcast.
Btw if you like podcasts this another good one on Rome.
The History of Rome
He does a good job of taking you through Roman history from beginning to the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Nice overview and held me down on many commutes.
GnauzBookOfRhymes
Superstar
Good thread.
I think Nixon's presidency/impeachment is an important inflection point. Yes, there were times before when presidents did certain arguably immoral things for political purposes (Johnson/Vietnam; Roosevelt/WW2). But Nixon was the first person to so clearly and comprehensively subordinate the nation and its laws, to his own personal political benefit. And he STILL had his defenders. Once you could openly defend a president wanting to use the full power of the federal government, including the FBI, IRS, CIA, NSA to go after individuals and institutions who are threatening your re-election, then nothing is really off limits.
You can then rationalize all sorts of madness (letting the US default on its debt, refusing to work with the opposition to fix a bloated and ineffectual health care system).
The other thing I would point out is that there was a much greater sense of duty to the country among the elite in the US than exists today. If you read biographies of the giants among the US ruling class, say up until the 50s - MANY of them served in WWII. Many of them went into government service not looking to become even richer afterwards. The concept of noblesse oblige no longer exists. Politics nowadays is used as a stepping stone for further riches - this distorts the political process and leads to less than optimal outcomes.
I think Nixon's presidency/impeachment is an important inflection point. Yes, there were times before when presidents did certain arguably immoral things for political purposes (Johnson/Vietnam; Roosevelt/WW2). But Nixon was the first person to so clearly and comprehensively subordinate the nation and its laws, to his own personal political benefit. And he STILL had his defenders. Once you could openly defend a president wanting to use the full power of the federal government, including the FBI, IRS, CIA, NSA to go after individuals and institutions who are threatening your re-election, then nothing is really off limits.
You can then rationalize all sorts of madness (letting the US default on its debt, refusing to work with the opposition to fix a bloated and ineffectual health care system).
The other thing I would point out is that there was a much greater sense of duty to the country among the elite in the US than exists today. If you read biographies of the giants among the US ruling class, say up until the 50s - MANY of them served in WWII. Many of them went into government service not looking to become even richer afterwards. The concept of noblesse oblige no longer exists. Politics nowadays is used as a stepping stone for further riches - this distorts the political process and leads to less than optimal outcomes.
Berniewood Hogan
IT'S BERNIE SANDERS WITH A STEEL CHAIR!
Carlo Sheeni said:
Well, we do know for sure that they did break established custom, and bypassing the senate in the way they did was absolutely untraditional...which is why we're still discussing them today. And, senator was a position for life...tribune was a limited term. So, while the tribune had veto power over the senate it was never expressly used to the direct detriment of the senate and the people they represented. By and large, the tribune prior to the Gracchi may have had that privilege, but didn't do anything out of the ordinary with it for fear of falling out of favor with the patrician class following their term of office. In other words, the senate established the tribunate to appease the plebs who they needed to fight their wars and harvest their fields. Of course, the sources on all this are extremely sketchy and much of it is conjecture based on context. That said, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just enjoy discussing the subject.
As for the premise of this thread, I think a more interesting discussing is the comparison between America's current situation and the fall of the Empire in the 5th century. The "causes" for the collapse of the Empire are several, of course, and some argue that it didn't fall until the creation of Charlemagne's empire and the rise of the Islamic Empire, but generally, you can argue that Rome experienced a golden age during the reign of Augustus when he was certainly an emperor in the practical sense, but gave lip service to the senate and the representative system. During that golden age, and especially amongst subsequent generations a general complacency set in amongst Romans which contributed to the various explicit causes of their fall. On the spot (without having done the required research to confidently make this claim), you might say that this was similar to the presidency of FDR and the "greatest generation". Many historians mark a turning point of the Roman narrative with the building of Hadrian's Wall (funny, right?), and perhaps...socially, more nuanced comparisons with America at present could be drawn out.
Anyway, reps all around
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Trajan
Veteran
Well, we do know for sure that they did break established custom, and bypassing the senate in the way they did was absolutely untraditional...which is why we're still discussing them today. And, senator was a position for life...tribune was a limited term. So, while the tribune had veto power over the senate it was never expressly used to the direct detriment of the senate and the people they represented. By and large, the tribune prior to the Gracchi may have had that privilege, but didn't do anything out of the ordinary with it for fear of falling out of favor with the patrician class following their term of office. In other words, the senate established the tribunate to appease the plebs who they needed to fight their wars and harvest their fields. Of course, the sources on all this are extremely sketchy and much of it is conjecture based on context. That said, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just enjoy discussing the subject.
As for the premise of this thread, I think a more interesting discussing is the comparison between America's current situation and the fall of the Empire in the 5th century. The "causes" for the collapse of the Empire are several, of course, and some argue that it didn't fall until the creation of Charlemagne's empire and the rise of the Islamic Empire, but generally, you can argue that Rome experienced a golden age during the reign of Augustus when he was certainly an emperor in the practical sense, but gave lip service to the senate and the representative system. During that golden age, and especially amongst subsequent generations a general complacency set in amongst Romans which contributed to the various explicit causes of their fall. On the spot (without having done the required research to confidently make this claim), you might say that this was similar to the presidency of FDR and the "greatest generation". Many historians mark a turning point of the Roman narrative with the building of Hadrian's Wall (funny, right?), and perhaps...socially, more nuanced comparisons with America at present could be drawn out.
Anyway, reps all around
How about the assassination of JFK as the equivalent to assassinating the Gracchi? It took 50 years to go from that to Sulla. Now it's been ~50 years give or take and we have the Trump - Bannon axis of evil, who knows what they'll try.