First Mass Protests in Algeria in Decades

[thatrapsfan]

Diplomat, protesters to plan Algeria's future after Bouteflika - source | Reuters

Reports that Lakhdar Brahimi ( former top UN official and before that Algerian FM) along side some protest leaders will lead a national forum to plan a new constitution and set dates for new elections.


Brahimi is 85 years old though and its hard to believe they would relinquish power this easily, so it may be an attempt at getting people off the street before they get back to the usual agenda.

 

[mbewane]

one thing is that in the context of arabic language it isnt unusual for someone from one region to not understand another regions dialect at all. in fact thats pretty much the norm, i have a palestinian friend who was telling me that when he hears yemenis (for example) talking in dialect he can't understand them. and a khaliji (from the gulf) wouldnt be able to understand strong lebanese dialects, like batrouni or terabalisi. syrian, egyptian and modern standard are the most commonly understood ones throughout the arab world though. this difficulty in understanding is probably moreso the case with darija but i wouldnt say that factor makes it not arabic.
i think the bigger issue with that is the idea a lot of arabs have that darija is like improper or bad arabic because of amazigh words and linguistic influence. i work in a mixed english- and arabic-speaking environment and the people i work with (maghrebi and non-maghrebi arabic) definitely consider darija a part of the arabic language. but that could also be effected by the fact that the field we work in is based around interest in "arab societies" and people are more likely to have an arab-focused perspective.

I guess yeah there are different views and whatnot, indeed it has a lot to do with the way they situate themselves in the world, all the examples of friends I've given are North Africans who strongly identify as Africans and politically/socially want to build in that direction and want nothing to do with Arab countries on the identity point. Also some of them who have actually been to "black" Africa and seen cultural and linguistical similarities. (There's huge sympathy for Palestinians though, much much much less for Saudis for example)

But yeah it goes also to the whole discussion of when does a "dialect" become a "language", some linguists say that "dialects" do not exist, it's just a condescending way of talking about local languages who are usually spoken by the have-nots and those who are not in power, whether those "dialects" have integreated aspects of the "official languages" or not. The fact that it's frowned upon because it's "badly spoken" or "mixed" is actually similar to how local languages were seen in France when Latin was still a thing, and then regional languages when "French" was imposed (violently) on all the country's regions by the central regime.
If a "dialect" from Morocco and one from Lebanon are not mutually understandable, why would one say they're both "arabic" or part of the "arabic language"? (I don't have any answers obviously, I'm just in general interested in languages )

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

I guess yeah there are different views and whatnot, indeed it has a lot to do with the way they situate themselves in the world, all the examples of friends I've given are North Africans who strongly identify as Africans and politically/socially want to build in that direction and want nothing to do with Arab countries on the identity point. Also some of them who have actually been to "black" Africa and seen cultural and linguistical similarities. (There's huge sympathy for Palestinians though, much much much less for Saudis for example)

But yeah it goes also to the whole discussion of when does a "dialect" become a "language", some linguists say that "dialects" do not exist, it's just a condescending way of talking about local languages who are usually spoken by the have-nots and those who are not in power, whether those "dialects" have integreated aspects of the "official languages" or not. The fact that it's frowned upon because it's "badly spoken" or "mixed" is actually similar to how local languages were seen in France when Latin was still a thing, and then regional languages when "French" was imposed (violently) on all the country's regions by the central regime.
If a "dialect" from Morocco and one from Lebanon are not mutually understandable, why would one say they're both "arabic" or part of the "arabic language"? (I don't have any answers obviously, I'm just in general interested in languages )

the sympathy for palestinins could also be more related to muslim or even more generally third world solidarity than arab specifically. in the arab world for all the pro-palestinian sentiment theres a huge amount of anti-palestinian prejudice especially in lebanon and (to an extent) egypt.

so for the question of why theyre considered part of the arabic language...arabic linguistic development is pretty weird. at this point in every arabic-speaking country theres a distinction between "FuSHa" (modern standard arabic that is closer to Qur'anic language and used in writing and formal contexts like the news) and Ammiya (local dialects that people actually speak day-to-day). Its a lot stronger than the distinction between formal and more casual english for example - like if you tried to talk to a cab driver in FuSHa he would straight up laugh at you. the differences between the dialects are huge too. in egypt, which is even one of the most commonly understood in the whole arab world, they pronounce the "j" sounds with a hard g. so while every other dialect would say jumeel (beautiful) egyptians say gumeel (also why gamal abdal-nassers first name wasnt jamal). in lebanon people "drop" the hard q sound (like the first letter in Qur'an, although they wouldnt drop it in that context). so whereas other people would say qulbi (my heart) they just say ulbi with like a pause at the start of the word.

this is because all of the dialects come from FuSHa but developed in unique ways.

the example you brought up about minority european languages is actually really helpful to understanding this. i know in france that after the revolution, french nationalists made public education a huge priority for the purpose (in part) training all the ethnic groups to speak read and write french as part of assuming french national identity. this also standardized the language in a way that hadnt been official before. arab speaking populations are divided in different countries so that kind of coordination hasnt been possible. additionally illiteracy is still high in a lot of the arab world so its more difficult to establish a single arab language without large-scale public education programs.

arab nationalists who want a single arab state in the region have emphasized this point of linguistic education and are generally more opposed to use of 3mmiya in school, as its seen as propping local nationalisms. Sati' al-Husri, one of the most famous arab nationalists, believed common language is the most important defining trait of a nation. he wrote an article i read once really strongly criticizing proliferation of 3mmiya as making it difficult for arabs to understand and relate to each other as a nation. he also considered education the most important part of that process, like the french nationalists.

 

[mbewane]

the sympathy for palestinins could also be more related to muslim or even more generally third world solidarity than arab specifically. in the arab world for all the pro-palestinian sentiment theres a huge amount of anti-palestinian prejudice especially in lebanon and (to an extent) egypt.

so for the question of why theyre considered part of the arabic language...arabic linguistic development is pretty weird. at this point in every arabic-speaking country theres a distinction between "FuSHa" (modern standard arabic that is closer to Qur'anic language and used in writing and formal contexts like the news) and Ammiya (local dialects that people actually speak day-to-day). Its a lot stronger than the distinction between formal and more casual english for example - like if you tried to talk to a cab driver in FuSHa he would straight up laugh at you. the differences between the dialects are huge too. in egypt, which is even one of the most commonly understood in the whole arab world, they pronounce the "j" sounds with a hard g. so while every other dialect would say jumeel (beautiful) egyptians say gumeel (also why gamal abdal-nassers first name wasnt jamal). in lebanon people "drop" the hard q sound (like the first letter in Qur'an, although they wouldnt drop it in that context). so whereas other people would say qulbi (my heart) they just say ulbi with like a pause at the start of the word.

this is because all of the dialects come from FuSHa but developed in unique ways.

the example you brought up about minority european languages is actually really helpful to understanding this. i know in france that after the revolution, french nationalists made public education a huge priority for the purpose (in part) of training of training all the ethnic groups to speak read and write french as part of assuming french national identity. this also standardized the language in a way that hadnt been official before. arab speaking populations are divided in different countries so that kind of coordination hasnt been possible. additionally illiteracy is still high in a lot of the arab world so its more difficult to establish a single arab language without large-scale public education programs.

arab nationalists who want a single arab state in the region have emphasized this point of linguistic education and are generally more opposed to use of 3mmiya in school, as its seen as propping local nationalisms. Sati' al-Husri, one of the most famous arab nationalists, believed common language is the most important defining trait of a nation. he wrote an article i read once really strongly criticizing proliferation of 3mmiya as making it difficult for arabs to understand and relate to each other as a nation. he also considered education the most important part of that process, like the french nationalists.

Props for that insight breh languages are fascinating

Really interesting about the "Gamal" thing...and yeah that's exactly what happened in France.

And indeed regarding Palestine it's definitly "third-world solidarity" and general anti-colonialism, as Israel is seen as a colonial state supported by the West, hell some even see it as a colony of the West with all the european and american jews who settled there. And on the contrary there's widespread distrust of most arab/muslim/maghreb/ME states who do not stand up for Palestine (meaning most of them), despite sharing the religion. There's been a lot of Palestinian flags in images I've seen and at the demonstration I went to.

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

Bouteflika just resigned

 

[JDH]

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

Military head Lt Gen Ahmed Gaed Salah was quoted by APS news agency earlier as saying: "There is no more room to waste time."
:sadwife:

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

Is Franco dead?

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

Didn't know there was a thread on this since I barely (read never) go to HL nowadays. If anyone has any questions, I'll try to answer them the best I can

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

Didn't know there was a thread on this since I barely (read never) go to HL nowadays. If anyone has any questions, I'll try to answer them the best I can

are you algerian breh

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

are you algerian breh

Yup

 

[JDH]

Didn't know there was a thread on this since I barely (read never) go to HL nowadays. If anyone has any questions, I'll try to answer them the best I can

I read that, according to the constitution, an election should be held within three months. Do you think that is likely to happen? And who will oversee the country until then?

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

Yup

word, you from algiers?

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

I read that, according to the constitution, an election should be held within three months. Do you think that is likely to happen? And who will oversee the country until then?

The President of the Council of the Nation (Abdelkader Bensalah - Wikipedia) will be acting as president for a maximum of 90 days during which new elections will be held (in which the acting president CANNOT take part). I'd like to say that this will be respected but you never truly know in "3rd world" countries.

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

word, you from algiers?

Yessir