Gary Payton: "Lebron Wouldn't be as good in our era"

[#1 pick]

yeah he would have but there's nobody in the middle these days, so dudes like LEbron, hell even Tony Parker can LIVE in the paint.

Lebron would still be great in the old school era, but he would've had to develop his mid-range/outside game alot faster.

This is stupid. I will end this right now

This is from Ne.1

In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%

Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.

Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think LeBron James or Kobe Bryant is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage in that era? Especially with Kobe getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.


Just to add from Ne.1

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak ). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.

It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bytched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVpPR1pyfkA[/ame]

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

Rodman would wear LeBron out from all the fukkery. All the mind games

There's nobody as insane as the worm in the league right now. Metta is

 

[ExodusNirvana]

They're not comparable because they're two completely different types of hits regardless of whether they were "blindsided" or not.

David Robinson caught a elbow from Karl Malone to fukking temple. That's why he crumpled to the ground like marionette that got it's strings cut.

Lebron got hit from behind in the in his back. His initial reaction to it was legit but him suddenly snapping backwards (which from a physics standpoint isn't gonna happen from being "blindsided like that" and falling to ground grabbing his neck was just him flopping.

If you're gonna make that argument at least find footage of a similar incident.

Yo he's really trying to defend that flop...wow...

He grabbed the back of his head and no part of his head hit Chandler. And he was'nt even going into Chandler full speed for all those theatrics.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgbHF5qKXTo"]Lebron James Flagrant Flop on Tyson Chandler (full play) 720p HD - YouTube[/ame]

LOOK! LOOK THE VIDEO IS RIGHT THERE!!! AND HE STILL TRYING TO DEFEND IT!!

nikka even had a delayed reaction...he got bumped...PAUSED...and then it was almost like he said "shyt I jsut connected with someone who's not a teammate...gotta play it up!!"

 

[Mic-Nificent]

Have you ever been blind sided picked in your back? Dude, stfu, I played the game. You embarrassing me right now with utter foolishness.

You've still yet to explain how being blind sided with a pick to your back is comparable to catching an elbow directly to your temple.

 

[Propaganda]

I think Bron will go down as a top 3 player of all time 4 sho, but I can see where GP is coming from.


I don't think he's questioning Bron's game or physical gifts, but more like hinting at Bron's mental fortitude.


Would Bron have been mentally prepared to get butchered all serious long against the Bad Boy Pistons and still be able to hold his composure?



The IQ, fundamentals,discipline, and mental toughness of the game in GP's era>>>>


Hell, I would've loved to see Bron against the '97 Knicks....just to see how he'd react to playing against teams like that

lebron's gotten fouled hard a million times, had players run up on him trying to bait him...he's always kept it together. in fact, he plays better a lot of the time. look what happened to the pacers when granger tried bullying him.

 

[Lord Beasley]

his size +speed combined with skill set would have sent nikkas into early retirement in that era. lebron can effectively play 4 positions on the court

im not even a bron stan but gary is trippin...

 

[#1 pick]

Rodman would wear LeBron out from all the fukkery. All the mind games

There's nobody as insane as the worm in the league right now. Metta is

KG's fukkery is more effective than Rodman's. Rodman was foolish, he made an ass out of himself more than not. I remember all those games when he was a Squr. You guys stay on Full when it comes to being idiots. KG trash talking, ability to mental wear you down is top notch. You guys really overrate the 90's. It wasn't even a good era, it was easily the worst era outside of the late 90's-early 2000's in NBA history. Maybe the early-mid 70's was worse since a large percent of the talent as also in the ABA.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

Yo he's really trying to defend that flop...wow...

He grabbed the back of his head and no part of his head hit Chandler. And he was'nt even going into Chandler full speed for all those theatrics.

Lebron James Flagrant Flop on Tyson Chandler (full play) 720p HD - YouTube

LOOK! LOOK THE VIDEO IS RIGHT THERE!!! AND HE STILL TRYING TO DEFEND IT!!

And then got the nerve to say "It's physics stupid"

 

[#1 pick]

You've still yet to explain how being blind sided with a pick to your back is comparable to catching an elbow directly to your temple.

Both are being blind sided. Both hurt. It hurts to get hit in the temple and it hurts like hell to be blind sided in your back.

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

this dumb nikka is asking why Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin and Jeff Hornacek were able to shoot above 50%?

Here's a hint: they could shoot.

 

[FTBS]

It's always funny when people make inter-era comparisons and act like nikkas are gonna get in a time machine or some shyt. If Bron had played in Payton's era he would have grown up dealing with more physicality and been used to it. Honestly he probably would have been better because some old school coach prolly woulda put his ass in the post and addressed his jumper earlier. Bron pretty much did his own thing from 18 until he got to MIA. Imagine if Thompson or Smith or Knight had a couple years to teach this nikka in the 80s. Beyond all that nikkas actin like frail Mike wasn't still beastin. Yeah the Pistons and Celtics were beating him but the nikka was still putting up 30-40 with regularity. I'm pretty sure Bron woulda been able to manage.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

Both are being blind sided. Both hurt. It hurts to get hit in the temple and it hurts like hell to be blind sided in your back.

OH, so it just hurts to get hit in the temple but it hurts "Like hell" to get hit in the back.



*edit*

Dude it's a shytty comparison.

It's like saying someone getting "blindsided" by a football player is comparable to getting blindsided by a car going 30 MPH. Yeah they were both "blindsided" and they're both hurt, but one is OBVIOUSLY going to be more hurt and more at risk for severe or fatal injury.

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

It's always funny when people make inter-era comparisons and act like nikkas are gonna get in a time machine or some shyt. If Bron had played in Payton's era he would have grown up dealing with more physicality and been used to it.

Works both ways nikka. If the players from the 80's had the same workout regimens, tools and HGH they would have been bigger and quicker also..

 

[BrothaZay]

Do you nikkas actually PLAY basketball? Not watch but actually play the sport(in real life)
GP is right. It dont matter how big lebron is, them nikkas in the 90s and 80s put EVERYONE on they ass.
You nikkas up in here talking like Lebron was really finna be runnin over nikkas like Dennis Rodman

It's more than just being big. Lebron is big, but he isnt tough, I guarantee you if someone put him on his ass one time, that would throw his whole game off.

Sorry STANS, but lebron isnt driving to the whole 15 times a game in the 80s or 90s.

 

[jadillac]

This is stupid. I will end this right now

This is from Ne.1

In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%

Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.

Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think LeBron James or Kobe Bryant is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage in that era? Especially with Kobe getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.


Just to add from Ne.1





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVpPR1pyfkA

What in the hell does any of this have to do with perimeter players these days living in the paint?

People like Mullin, Miller, Drazen, Hornacek were GREAT jump shooters. They shot over 50%, but they weren't doing it by driving to the basket every play. Did you even watch basketball back then, or just go by stats?

The point is, Lebron would've had to be better from the perimeter alot sooner. Even Michael Jordan had to develop his mid range game.