Glaring black female hypocrisy on IR/LGBT representation.

[Supper]

Let me bring myself in here, I was in the Issa Rae thread about the show she’s producing about black bi-sexual men. I had a back & fourth there because I supported it based off of seeing black people produce, write, direct, & star on the new project. I didn’t care that it was about bi-sexual black men. If it were about black bi-women, I’d still watch. My thing is simply supporting black projects.

But, why is it that black women will attack and shame black men for not supporting black male lgbt when it's already over represented in comparison to their population size, but at the same time you don't see this push from black female artist, critics, and activist to portray black female lgbt in the media, when it's an under represented demographic?

Also why do so many black women then turn around and support the reinforcement of white male patriarchal hegemony by celebrating and endorsing heterosexual interracial pairing, particularly those with white men, when that IR coupling is already far over represented? Will you campaign against this lopsided hetero interracial representation by calling for less of the over represented BW/WM pairing. Will you also call for more of the under represented BM/WW or BM/XW pairing?

 

[Lifejennings]

This uses data from 1967 - 2005


http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0013821/ramoutar_n.pdf

I mean we're talking MOUNTAINS of evidence that attest to the over representation of hetero IRBW and the under representation of hetero IRBM in films.


BW/WM, on top of being far more common is portrayed as a more more virtuous, healthy, stable IR coupling.



There is clear bias in favor of the BW/WM coupling over the BM/WW coupling in Hollywood. But, I'm sure @Lifejennings will remain in denial and continue to gaslight with some random cherry picked movies he/she digs up to avoid addressing any real data on the subject. I can't believe we even had to go all the way back to square one to address this.

Key word in your data is women of color. Black women only accounted for 20% of the women in those films compared to 13.3% of black men. That isn't the double that you have been talking about, and this data only bolsters the point that black people don't control media.

You still have presented no data showing that leading black gay male characters are overrepresented.

 

[Lifejennings]

Happy Endings: Interracial Couples on Television - American Renaissance

I wouldn't quote this if I were you. It details heightened violence in interracial relationships which might account for the way they are portrayed in film.

http://www.bytchmedia.org/post/will-interracial-relationships-ever-be-common-on-tv

Note: It cites the same source I did. Seems like everyone else has no trouble understanding how numbers work.

Your resources are conflicting.

 

[SupremexKing]

I don't know. I am one woman and I don't watch either. But, to me I would think betrayal - not resentment or distrust. But, I find it weird cause BW and WW relationships in media is almost like they are trying to rewrite or re-tale a disgusting demonic history of which BW were assaulted and raped by WM for hundreds of years in the U.S.

BM and WW relationships (most) had agency --- of agreeing to sex with with eachother. This was not how BW/WM were.

They are trying to rewrite their story in media making them (WM) this good guy when they are far from it.

talk about rewriting history.

what empirical data are you basing this off? you realize black men were historically raped and dehumanized just like black women right?

you telling me that black men, given the history of america, have "agreed" to sex white women because they're male?

either specify what time period you're referring to or correct this post becasue its wildly inaccurate and misleading.

 

[Supper]

Key word in your data is women of color. Black women only accounted for 20% of the women in those films compared to 13.3% of black men. That isn't the double that you have been talking about, and this data only bolsters the point that black people don't control media.

I never ONCE claim that black people or black women control the media. But, that they are hypocritical and reinforce white male patriarchal hegemony in how they advocate for representation of certain interracial and lgbt couplings.

And well, the two stats us two totally different time scales, one specifics black/white couples, while the other uses data from interracial blacks in general, and finally they most likely, in fact I'm pretty sure, use different critieria for what they consider to be "interracial romance". But, leaving room for margins of error, there's a clear consistent pattern from the different bodies of research that show hetero IRBW have far more and better representation than hetero IRBM.

You still have presented no data showing that leading black gay male characters are overrepresented.

Well, unless there are more than 97 straight black male protagonist in major movies or TV you can show me from the last 2 years, it's safe to say that black male lgbt is over represented in comparison to their mere %2 population. If they were proportional to their actual population size they should only make up %2 of the black male major leading roles, which probably wouldn't even amount to one every 5 years.

 

[SupremexKing]

What is there to admit? We all know that whites control the media. Whether or not it can be considered propaganda is what is up for debate. A question that should be asked also is if visual media is propaganda why isn't musical media also considered propaganda. The vast majority of Coli posters dismiss this in @PhonZhi threads.

this isn't up for debate lol.

all activity is either constructive or nonconstructive, and the majority of media consumed by black people, (whether music movies books etc) is nonconstructive propaganda.

just because a few surface level thinkers disagree doesn't mean anything. "the majority" of coli posters aren't intlligent.

lets not sit here and act like whites pump billions into keeping nikkas entertained for the sake of it.

 

[Supper]

I wouldn't quote this if I were you. It details heightened violence in interracial relationships which might account for the way they are portrayed in film.

Yeah, except BW/WM couples also have higher than average rates of domestic violence as well. Yet they're romanticized as healthy, virtuous, stable, and exotic in films. So, why the favoritism from hollywood if not a clear bias for BW/WM over BM/WW?

But of course black women benefit from this aspect of white male patriarchal hegemony, so you'll never hear them call it out.

 

[Katey]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to actually read over the post and provide actual answers to the questions posed.

No problem

I thought it would be easily implied from my point about white male patriarchal hegemony that white males run the show behind the scenes when it comes to film, not black women. But, if I wasn't clear enough then, then let me say it now: The media, in all of it's forms are, by and large, are produced, funded, distributed, screened, and showcased by people, companies, and theaters owned by white men.

HOWEVER, I do have a gripe with black women, in their lack of integrity in how they choose to selectively endorse certain types of lgbt and IR relationships in film- Namely black male homosexuality and black female interracial heterosexuality, them seeming to be okay with & even ENDORSING white male patriarchal hegemony given that they're included in it, and how they use these issues of IR & lgbt representation in media as an avenue to publicly shame and attack black men. Thus, I see it fit to call them out to task on their hypocrisies as well. I only wish I had a bigger medium to do so on.

I support black LGBT people, regardless of gender. That being said, black men are black men regardless of sexual orientation and like another poster said, I support black projects regardless or at least check them out. I don’t see gay black men as a weapon against straight black men, just like I don’t see black lesbians as a threat to my representation as a straight black female because they are in fact, black females, so that’s your own personal issue to deal with.


I see. Great.

I wonder why we don't see more black women pushing for black female lgbt roles, anywhere near as hard as they push for black male lgbt, when they're so underrepresented, especially since they claim, as you stated, to want to see more BLACK WOMEN in the media- So, why are they so focused on black male lgbt? Any thoughts on that?

In my opinion, black women defend gay black male characters more than they push for them. They are open to them and black men as a collective are not, which is why you believe that. In the case of Issa Rae’s new show, she’s created multiple black male characters that aren’t gay, so I don’t think her new show has bad intentions. It would be different if every single black male character she created is gay. I’ve heard multiple black LGBT women state that they feel underrepresented in media and I already stated that we aren’t represented unless there’s a biracial actress available or we’re on a white man’s arm, so I guess we aren’t being heard just like you claim you aren’t.

Great.

But, here's another instance where you differ from the majority(or at least most vocal) of black women, who seem to cheer, celebrate, and endorse black female heterosexual interracial pairings on screen. To paraphrase, they seem to look it as affirming black female attractiveness, desirability, and femininity to have men of other races, particularly white men, shown perusing and/or having relationships with them. I take it they wouldn't view black female lgbt as satisfying the same purpose. They may even view black lesbianism as detrimental to it.i

Actress Nia Long herself did so in an interview on her role on The Best Man Holiday.
Nia Long Says She Wanted A White Love Interest In “The Best Man Holiday” And It’s No Disrespect To Black Men

Why do you think that is? I can't think of a black male actor who specifically requested a white female love interest, despite the pairing being FAR under represented in film, especially MAJOR film productions.

Most of the black women you are discussing constantly speak about the importance od intersectionality, so they are okay with black female LGBT characters. Laverne Cox and Samira Wiley’s characters from “Orange is the New Black” come to mind. There hasn’t been a show starring or featuring strictly black gay female characters, but I don’t think there would be as much of an uproar compared to black men. Nia Long wanted a white love interest, it’s no different from you wanting to see more IR pairings with black men and non-black women, she just got to personally request it because she’s a character on set.

Cool, so you see black male heterosexual IR under representation as black men's issue to deal with then, correct? Just so we're clear.

If you guys want to see more heterosexual interracial pairings involving yourselves, go for it, but black women should be able to do the same without judgement, too. You’re being a hypocrite.

So, then, by the same token you(black women) should leave the issue of black male homosexual representation up to black men as well, and stop butting your noses in trying to shame us for supposedly not accepting it(which makes no sense seeing as it's over represented when compared to their pop size), and trying to shove it down our throats in whatever way you or the white media please, when you have the issue of black female lgbt under representation to deal with, correct?

Nobody is shoving anything “down your throat”. Once again, if black women on social media promote intersectionality and defend the LGBT community, black gay men aren’t excluded just because straight black men are uncomfortable with it. Plus, they can push for more black lesbian characters while defending black gay characters because they generally support black people and want their experiences to be shown through different lenses.

And if we do push for more black male heterosexual IRRs you wont boycott it like ya'll did with the Red Tails movie, correct?

I don’t really care about IR in movies, so that’s your choice, plus I wasn’t aware of any boycotting of Red Tails in the first place, but with the way you want to push IR pairings involving black men, you shouldn’t have even brought up black women celebrating IR involving them because you’re doing the same thing you’re accusing them of.

 

[Milk N Cookies]

But, why is it that black women will attack and shame black men for not supporting black male lgbt when it's already over represented in comparison to their population size, but at the same time you don't see this push from black female artist, critics, and activist to portray black female lgbt in the media, when it's an under represented demographic?

Also why do so many black women then turn around and support the reinforcement of white male patriarchal hegemony by celebrating and endorsing heterosexual interracial pairing, particularly those with white men, when that IR coupling is already far over represented? Will you campaign against this lopsided hetero interracial representation by calling for less of the over represented BW/WM pairing. Will you also call for more of the under represented BM/WW or BM/XW pairing?

Black women, I think get underrepresented in lgbt. As far as lgbt is concerned Laverne Cox is the answer. When she stepped onto the scene with Orange is the New Black, she was everywhere. You couldn’t turn a channel or flip a magazine page without seeing her face or hearing her name. And hey, it’s cool she’s the first transwoman to go very far, beyond where those before her had ever gotten. But that’s all we got?? Are there no other examples of black women who are of the lgbt who can get representation like Laverne? How bout this, where is OUR Ellen Degeneris? (Don’t give me no bullshyt ass Queen Latifah) It’s a struggle being gay already, but to me it’s a bit harder to be gay and a minority.

As far as black women supporting lgbt, we do. It’s just not as largely represented. When it comes to interracial dating, that’s a different story. Some women are down with it. Some are open minded, lives sees no color. Some women are color struck to the point they want kids with good hair and ‘nice’ features. Something that comes from a deep rooted form of insecurity & not loving their naturally God given features orrr a bullshyt cop out of not wanting their children to suffer from there oppression of what it is growing up black.

In this day and age, like lgbt interracial coupling isn’t going under represented anymore. Everyday we have commercials & magazine advertisements with interracial couples and their children. We also have tv shows and even cartoons with gay characters of both sexes mind you. we live in a world some would call soft, but it’s a world where we have more tolerance for people that are of ‘other’ category. Other meaning different, but not in strange way. Just meaning not a carbon copy of you.

The world is open and accepting to change, we are evolving the mindset of people are different & still they are as beautiful as the day they were born in the way they were made. This includes those who feel they were born in the wrong body.

 

[Phitz]

what about people like me who dno't watch tv shows?

Why should I be concerned about what the one eyed monster speaks?

 

[Supper]

I support black LGBT people, regardless of gender. That being said, black men are black men regardless of sexual orientation and like another poster said, I support black projects regardless or at least check them out. I don’t see gay black men as a weapon against straight black men, just like I don’t see black lesbians as a threat to my representation as a straight black female because they are in fact, black females, so that’s your own personal issue to deal with.

I don't know who's statement you're addressing but you side stepped my point and came with a complete random strawman argument. I never said or even implied that homosexual black men weren't black men too. Nor did I say you didn't see lesbian black women as black women too. In fact my statement didn't even address your or my personal opinions, but the actions or lack thereof of the black female collective. Or at least those that are most prominent and vocal.

Please address why black women as a whole will endorse and celebrate heterosexual black female IR couples despite them already be over represented as it is, but then will not even give lip service to black female lgbt under representation representation. If they advocate so ardently for lgbt representation and intersectionality, then why are they pushing for black male lgbt which is already over represented compared to their pop size, and for heterosexual interracial black women, which is not only over represented, but reinforces white male patriarchal hegemony. And since you all do that then, I'm sorry, but you're in no position to lecture us about representation, "intersectionality"(which in of itself is shown to be a flawed theory, at least in the way ya'll present it), bigotry, and oppression. Because you all tend to pick and chose which types of black representation you present(those black women in the media) and endorse(average black women).

Don't give me your personal views on the subject or try to extrapolate mine. Address the inconsistent and hypocriticals actions and lack thereof of black women collectively I outlined above.

In my opinion, black women defend gay black male characters more than they push for them. They are open to them and black men as a collective are not, which is why you believe that. In the case of Issa Rae’s new show, she’s created multiple black male characters that aren’t gay, so I don’t think her new show has bad intentions. It would be different if every single black male character she created is gay. I’ve heard multiple black LGBT women state that they feel underrepresented in media and I already stated that we aren’t represented unless there’s a biracial actress available or we’re on a white man’s arm, so I guess we aren’t being heard just like you claim you aren’t.

What are you defending black lgbt males from? Criticism by black men of the way and frequency in which they're presented in the media? Sorry, but the last time I checked we black men are allowed to critique and criticize how we are presented in the media just like you all do with light skin over representation. It doesn't mean we harbor bigotry or homophobia towards lgbt individuals. And it's not just the over representation of homosexuality we have a problem with, it's the overall lopsided marginalization of black men, particularly in a sexual/romantic context being represented as disproportionately asexual, homosexual, or toxic-sexual(rapist, abusers, harassers, etc.).

But, hey maybe I should play your game and extrapolate from you criticism of the over representation of light skinned black women, that you're insecure, bigoted, and racist against light skinned or mixed women. And it's our job as black men to defend light skin women from you angry jealous dark skin women always attacking them? I mean, you don't see us black men complaining about light skinned or mixed-race men do you, so why are you so adverse to light skinned women being represented(and you better not say because they're over represented)? Sounds like you have personal issues to deal with....................Now, see what I just did there? Doesn't feel so good for people to assume the worst about or misrepresent your well meaning & perfectly legit criticism, does it?

And if you're acknowledging that black female lgbt is under represented then, why is it that we don't see black women applying to same amount of vigor and energy that you from them when 'defending' black male lgbt representation(which is over represented) or the same about of enthusiasm & excitement from them when a heterosexual interracial black woman is presented in the media(which is also over represented)?

Most of the black women you are discussing constantly speak about the importance od intersectionality, so they are okay with black female LGBT characters. Laverne Cox and Samira Wiley’s characters from “Orange is the New Black” come to mind. There hasn’t been a show starring or featuring strictly black gay female characters, but I don’t think there would be as much of an uproar compared to black men. Nia Long wanted a white love interest, it’s no different from you wanting to see more IR pairings with black men and non-black women, she just got to personally request it because she’s a character on set.

With all due respect, I'm not interested whether or not you believe they WOULD be okay with black female lgbt roles. I'm interested in why they don't apply the energy that they have for the over represented black male lgbt and heterosexual interracial black female roles. Why aren't black females writers, producers, and directors like Issa rae creating shows/movies starring lgbt black females? Why aren't black actresses like Nia Long specifically requesting for a lesbian role? Again, with all due respect, their inaction on the issue of under representation of black female lgbt speaks a lot louder than your second hand attempts to speak on their behalf.

Furthermore, I never once claimed that we should have more hetero IRBM roles or that I want to see more. I posed it as a question to another person and I spoke out about the unfair treatment hetero IRBM roles get being underrepresented and misrepresented as degenerate the few times they are shown in comparison to hetero IRBW roles.

ANYONE, including you, who's truly advocates for black representation(as you claimed to) and is against white male patriarchal hegemony(which you also claim), in the interest of fairness, would have a problem with that. To not would be hypocritical, because hetero IRBM are black people too just like lgbt black men.

So, do you see a problem with it or are you okay with black men being maligned & marginalized like this in the mass media? Or is that you only concerned with maintaining as much LGBT black male representation as possible, but could careless about the representation of other %98 of us(and one could even question if that's genuine).

If you guys want to see more heterosexual interracial pairings involving yourselves, go for it, but black women should be able to do the same without judgement, too. You’re being a hypocrite.

Wow, what a lazy and inaccurate strawman you've presented, couple with a mindless ad hominem attack. Shame, I expected better.

But, again I never once stated I wanted to see more hetero IRBM pairing just for the sake of seeing it. My issue is how unfairly they are treated being under represented & misrepresented as degenerate which represents a large attack on the image of black men as a whole. So, if you and other black women see it fit to speak out on behalf of lgbt black males, when they're already over represented in the media, then why can't you empathize with the plight of IRBM representation, which is maligned and marginalizied by the media, unlike lgbt black men. Hetero IRBM are black men and black people too? So, where's your solidarity and compassion for their plight?

Nobody is shoving anything “down your throat”. Once again, if black women on social media promote intersectionality and defend the LGBT community, black gay men aren’t excluded just because straight black men are uncomfortable with it. Plus, they can push for more black lesbian characters while defending black gay characters because

Actually if you attempt to force us to accept any and every lgbt black male representation, and shut down any critique or criticism of it like we do with EVERY OTHER portrayal of black men, then yes, you are attempt to shove it down our throats.

How would you like it if we jumped down your throats every time you guys criticized the over representation of light skinned or mixed black women and tried to stop you from voicing your concerns about it. After all, light skinned and mixed black women shouldn't be excluded just because you brown and dark skinned women are insecure and uncomfortable with them getting their shine in media.

they generally support black people and want their experiences to be shown through different lenses.

No, they don't. Because if they did they wouldn't ignore the plight of marginalized and maligned hetero IRBM and lgbt BW. They are black people too, so why shouldn't their experiences be shown through difference lenses.

Sorry, but, I'm calling bs on that one.

I don’t really care about IR in movies, so that’s your choice, plus I wasn’t aware of any boycotting of Red Tails in the first place, but with the way you want to push IR pairings involving black men, you shouldn’t have even brought up black women celebrating IR involving them because you’re doing the same thing you’re accusing them of.

And again, I'm not advocating for hetero IRBM just for sake of having more hetero IRBM, like black women do with the over represented hetero IRBW in media. I'm speaking out against the marginalization & maligning of an underrepresented & misrepresented group by the media, which is hetero IRBM. And you and other black women would be too if you really cared about supporting black people being fairly represented in the media. If you don't then it shows you really don't practice what you preach, and aren't in a position to lecture us about 'intersectionality', oppression, and representation.

And yes, they did boycott Red Tails. Clutch magazine covered the event in one of their articles.

 

[Kerkum]

As a black gay man I would love to see some strong representation of heterosexual black relationships. A lot of media wants to portray the straight black male as financially inferior to the black woman and I find that offensive. They're really pushing that narrative, particularly on the show Insecure. A lot of straight bruthas I know got their shyt together and can even compete or topple their woman's income.

 

[Kerkum]

Also, let's stop this argument that gayness is being indoctrinated to black boys. Most, if not all reject anything perceived gay wholesale...no questions asked. You cannot influence orientation on someone. I see women do it because the bisexual/lesbian chick is considered "trendy" among most millennial circles. I don't see straight nikkas claiming to tongue down another dude to "fit in" with his boys. Let's keep it real

 

[Supper]

As a black gay man I would love to see some strong representation of heterosexual black relationships. A lot of media wants to portray the straight black male as financially inferior to the black woman and I find that offensive. They're really pushing that narrative, particularly on the show Insecure. A lot of straight bruthas I know got their shyt together and can even compete or topple their woman's income.

Oh, so you didn't see my critique of the over representation of lgbt black male leading roles as bigotry or homophobia against you? Because apparently some looney black female intersectionalist here think you need to be 'defended' from criticism of how certain black male demographics are misrepresented, under or over represented. Apparently we're not allowed to have this conversation because they think it marginalizes you, even though I've repeated stated that it's not my intention to do so.

After all is not just the way lgbt are represented, it's the overall lopsided marginalization of black men, particularly in a sexual/romantic context being represented as disproportionately asexual, homosexual, or toxic-sexual(rapist, abusers, harassers, etc.), not lgbt black males representation in of itself. And also the unfair under representation and misrepresentation of hetero IRBM.

Shouldn't we as black men ALL have solidarity around these issues.

 

[Kerkum]

Oh, so you didn't see my critique of the over representation of lgbt black male leading roles as bigotry or homophobia against you. Because apparently some looney black female intersectionalist here think need to be 'defended' from criticism of how certain black male demographics are misrepresented, under or over represented. Apparently we're not allowed to have this conversation because they think it marginalizes you even though, I've repeated stated that it's not my intention to do so.

After all is not just the way lgbt are represented, it's the overall lopsided marginalization of black men, particularly in a sexual/romantic context being represented as disproportionately asexual, homosexual, or toxic-sexual(rapist, abusers, harassers, etc.), not lgbt black males representation in of itself. And also the unfair under representation and misrepresentation of hetero IRBM.

Shouldn't we as black men ALL have solidarity around these issues.

Goes withou saying

I agree with you 100%