Greece’s Miserable Bailout Deal UPDATED:Tsipras to resign

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

 

[CHL]

Perhaps.. But at this rate of recovery they might just ask another care package without giving anything back. And repeat.

That's the fault of the troika and Germany, friend

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

That's the fault of the troika and Germany, friend

They'd be better off bartering and being hunter gathers at this point.

 

[joeychizzle]

That's the fault of the troika and Germany, friend

Germany needs to stop bleeding their money out to broke ass countries. If the Euro crashes they're fukked because their Deutsch Marks are gonna be so fukking valuable nobody's gonna trade with em. Unless they peg their currency and artificially manipulate it, like China's doing.

They'd be better off bartering and being hunter gathers at this point.

They're gonna pester IMF for money to buy furs and hunting rifles. If they really do get axed, they're gonna have one last fukk you

 

[CHL]

Germany needs to stop bleeding their money out to broke ass countries. If the Euro crashes they're fukked because their Deutsch Marks are gonna be so fukking valuable nobody's gonna trade with em. Unless they peg their currency and artificially manipulate it, like China's doing.


They're gonna pester IMF for money to buy furs and hunting rifles. If they really do get axed, they're gonna have one last fukk you

Nah, they need to stop forcing policies that run counter to any prospects for growth in the Greek economy as conditions for the loans, and then they would see a larger return on the loans in the long run. Austerity is a failure.

 

[joeychizzle]

Nah, they need to stop forcing policies that run counter to any prospects for growth in the Greek economy as conditions for the loans, and then they would see a larger return on the loans in the long run. Austerity is a failure.

They're setting those policies up cause they're pissed. If they had softer policies Greece would just take a mile from the inch they're given and the whole damn EU might have to start chipping in

I'm not a finance (business management ) major but I really think they gotta slow the fukk down with the aid packages. It simply comes down to Greece getting used to them and doing just enough to warrant another one without concerted efforts to boost their limping economy.

 

[CHL]

They're setting those policies up cause they're pissed. If they had softer policies Greece would just take a mile from the inch they're given and the whole damn EU might have to start chipping in

I'm not a finance (business management ) major but I really think they gotta slow the fukk down with the aid packages. It simply comes down to Greece getting used to them and doing just enough to warrant another one without concerted efforts to boost their limping economy.

Breh, vastly cutting public expenditure, investing virtually nothing in infrastructure and education because all the loan goes towards is paying not even the debt but interest on the debt, and privatising every asset you have, is not how you stimulate economic activity and economic growth. It's counter productive. Look at Jamaica. Look at Bolivia pre 2007.

This is what has been demanded since the first loan package a few years ago.

Even the IMF itself has said recently debt relief, extending loan maturities, and more favourable loan conditions/demands are necessary.


Does Greece have structural and internal issues? Sure. However It's very overstated and isn't the primary driver here.

 

[joeychizzle]

Breh, vastly cutting public expenditure, investing virtually nothing in infrastructure and education because all the loan goes towards is paying not even the debt but interest on the debt, and privatising every asset you have, is not how you stimulate economic activity and economic growth. It's counter productive. Look at Jamaica. Look at Bolivia pre 2007.

This is what has been demanded since the first loan package a few years ago.

Even the IMF itself has said recently debt relief, extending loan maturities, and more favourable loan conditions/demands are necessary.


Does Greece have structural and internal issues? Sure. However It's very overstated and isn't the primary driver here.

Will Greece actually increase/maintain public expenditure and continue to invest in infrastructure and education even if the loans are interest free? I'm kinda outta my depth here, but I think Greece is just too much of a mess to fix itself in the time frame people expect them to be fixed. I don't purposely wanna see Greece fail but I wouldn't be against seeing them collapse as well, just to see how it goes.

 

[karim]

Germany needs to stop bleeding their money out to broke ass countries. If the Euro crashes they're fukked because their Deutsch Marks are gonna be so fukking valuable nobody's gonna trade with em. Unless they peg their currency and artificially manipulate it, like China's doing.


They're gonna pester IMF for money to buy furs and hunting rifles. If they really do get axed, they're gonna have one last fukk you

germany is the main reason for the mess the eurozone is currently in. they didn't bail out greece, they bailed out their own banks who recklessly lend money to the greeks that they damn well knew they could never pay back. why did they lend this money to the greeks (and other european periphery governments?) because they gambled on getting periphery interest rates with german security. they figured that when the whole thing collapsed, the germans would bail them out and that is exactly what happened. the normal thing to do for the greeks in 2010 would have been to default on those loans, but they weren't allowed to do that. the normal thing for the germans would have been to let the greeks default and then recapitalize their banks and use that opportunity to impose strict regulations, in order to prevent them from recklessly lending again and then sell them once they became profitable again. instead, germany, the imf and the other eurozone governments gave money to greece to give to the banks until 100% of the greek dept was socialized. now the dept is no longer held by private institutions, but by european governments. meaning the profits of that reckless lending went to the banks, while the losses are going to be paid by european taxpayers. everybody knows the money is lost, but nobody wants to explain to the voters where it went. so instead, governments and the imf give loans to greece, which the greeks immediately give back to them as interest payments. in order for them not to have to explain to their voters that the money is lost, they pretend that the greeks will be able to pay it back if they continue to cut state expanditures, reduce salaries and privatize state owned businesses. this is nonsense, and therefore, new loans have to be given to the greeks regularly. this in turn keeps the greek economy in a stranglehold, preventing it from recuperating and causing permanent damages. businesses go bancrupt, the infrastructure detiriorates and skilled young people leave the country. it will take at least a generation to get greece back on track and that is only after austerity measures are stopped and serious money is put into rebuilding the greek economy. meanwhile, german and french banks still sit on top of hundreds of billions of bad dept from periphery countries that everybody knows will never be paid back. that's why this whole sharade is being played, because once that comes out, all hell will brake loose, since nobody has the money to bail them out.

now why is germany the main country responsible for the continous crisis?

1. because they insisted on the no bailout clause when the eurozone was developed, creating a dysfunctional monetary union as a result.
2. because back in 2010 they refused to accept greece had a problem that had to be solved on a european level until it could no longer be ignored. if the problem had been adressed in time, the crisis would have never escalated the way it did.
3. because for 5 years now, they have been unwilling to do more than the bare minimum to try and resolve the crisis, dragging their feet, kicking the can down the road, making the costs of the crisis more expensive with each year that passes and every round of negotiations that fails to adress the true roots of the problem.
4. because they framed the eurocrisis as a crisis of state solvency, when in fact it was another banking crisis, and developed a narrative of good responsible core countries and lazy southern europeans. as a result, the eu is now polarized, the concept of european solidarity is all but forgotten and five years of continuous crisis have severely damaged the legitimacy of the european institutions. this means that it is impossible to do what is necessary, namely, transferring more economic and fiscal competences to the european level.

and

5. and probably most importantly, because germany has been wage dumping for 20 years now. ever since reunification, government expenditures in germany have been cut and labor market reforms were implemented that kept german wages low. on top of that, the euro as a currency is severely undervalued when it comes to german productivity. the combination of relatively low wages and an undervalued currency allowes germany to sell high quality industrial goods for cheap on the international market. the downside to that is that germanys domestic market doesn't function, because people have less money to consume. in addition, germans are traditionally frugal and save money instead of spending it. so german businesses had to crank up their exports. at the same time, the other european countries could not compete with the german combination of a low wages, cheap currency and a highly efficient industrial sector. so what did they do to create growth? consume. what did they consume? german goods. how did they get the money to consume? by borrowing money. who did they borrow from? germany. why did german banks lend money to uncompetetive economies? because they could not invest in germany, because the state cut expenditures and the domestic market doesn't function. now, in order to get back those loans, germany is forcing these countries to cut expenditures to try and compete with the exporting machine that is the german industry, which is almost impossible to do. and even if it was, who is going to buy all these products? the germans aren't, their own population can't and their neighbors are busy trying to compete with the germans as well. in addition, 50% of german exports go into the eurozone. if these countries can no longer afford to consume german goods, because they want to become more competetive, who is germany going to sell their products to? germany needs to start spending and to increase wages in order to prop up the domestic market. for the eurzone and the common european market to function, germany, as the most powerful economy in the region, should be an absorber of overproduction in the rest of europe. german consumption should be fueling growth in the eu, but so far, things have been working the other way around and germany is refusing to change it's business model. as long as this is not adressed, the eurocrisis will not be solved.

 

[Tate]

The only clear fact in the current discussion is that austerity will not work in Greece. Something must change. They're pouring water into a blocked esophagus

 

[CHL]

Will Greece actually increase/maintain public expenditure and continue to invest in infrastructure and education even if the loans are interest free? I'm kinda outta my depth here, but I think Greece is just too much of a mess to fix itself in the time frame people expect them to be fixed. I don't purposely wanna see Greece fail but I wouldn't be against seeing them collapse as well, just to see how it goes.

The current Syriza party, if they had the capability to do so, absolutely would. They're a leftist party.

They (Greece) have been given zero opportunity to do so in this current time period since the bailouts started. Their budgetary policy has effectively been set by their creditors (the troika) who demand absurdly high surplus targets for a State in Greece's position, with zero room for Greece to invest in their economy. The bailout money for the most part doesn't go to Greece, it goes to the creditors. They don't even address the Greek oligarchs. And this is the disastrous result:

Keep in mind that the very slightly improved 2014 figure then sharply plummeted even more this year

 

[joeychizzle]

The current Syriza party, if they had the capability to do so, absolutely would. They're a leftist party.

They (Greece) have been given zero opportunity to do so in this current time period since the bailouts started. Their budgetary policy has effectively been set by their creditors (the troika) who demand absurdly high surplus targets for a State in Greece's position, with zero room for Greece to invest in their economy. The bailout money for the most part doesn't go to Greece, it goes to the creditors. They don't even address the Greek oligarchs. And this is the disastrous result:

Keep in mind that the very slightly improved 2014 figure then sharply plummeted even more this year

So basically the shyt is rigged. There's fukking landmines in that money. That GDP figure from '11 to '13 is fukking horrendous

 

[88m3]

Lets just say in this game of musical chairs the Greek people are allowed to sit is on the chair legs.

fixed

 

[joeychizzle]

germany is the main reason for the mess the eurozone is currently in. they didn't bail out greece, they bailed out their own banks who recklessly lend money to the greeks that they damn well knew they could never pay back. why did they lend this money to the greeks (and other european periphery governments?) because they gambled on getting periphery interest rates with german security. they figured that when the whole thing collapsed, the germans would bail them out and that is exactly what happened. the normal thing to do for the greeks in 2010 would have been to default on those loans, but they weren't allowed to do that. the normal thing for the germans would have been to let the greeks default and then recapitalize their banks and use that opportunity to impose strict regulations, in order to prevent them from recklessly lending again and then sell them once they became profitable again. instead, germany, the imf and the other eurozone governments gave money to greece to give to the banks until 100% of the greek dept was socialized. now the dept is no longer held by private institutions, but by european governments. meaning the profits of that reckless lending went to the banks, while the losses are going to be paid by european taxpayers. everybody knows the money is lost, but nobody wants to explain to the voters where it went. so instead, governments and the imf give loans to greece, which the greeks immediately give back to them as interest payments. in order for them not to have to explain to their voters that the money is lost, they pretend that the greeks will be able to pay it back if they continue to cut state expanditures, reduce salaries and privatize state owned businesses. this is nonsense, and therefore, new loans have to be given to the greeks regularly. this in turn keeps the greek economy in a stranglehold, preventing it from recuperating and causing permanent damages. businesses go bancrupt, the infrastructure detiriorates and skilled young people leave the country. it will take at least a generation to get greece back on track and that is only after austerity measures are stopped and serious money is put into rebuilding the greek economy. meanwhile, german and french banks still sit on top of hundreds of billions of bad dept from periphery countries that everybody knows will never be paid back. that's why this whole sharade is being played, because once that comes out, all hell will brake loose, since nobody has the money to bail them out.

now why is germany the main country responsible for the continous crisis?

1. because they insisted on the no bailout clause when the eurozone was developed, creating a dysfunctional monetary union as a result.
2. because back in 2010 they refused to accept greece had a problem that had to be solved on a european level until it could no longer be ignored. if the problem had been adressed in time, the crisis would have never escalated the way it did.
3. because for 5 years now, they have been unwilling to do more than the bare minimum to try and resolve the crisis, dragging their feet, kicking the can down the road, making the costs of the crisis more expensive with each year that passes and every round of negotiations that fails to adress the true roots of the problem.
4. because they framed the eurocrisis as a crisis of state solvency, when in fact it was another banking crisis, and developed a narrative of good responsible core countries and lazy southern europeans. as a result, the eu is now polarized, the concept of european solidarity is all but forgotten and five years of continuous crisis have severely damaged the legitimacy of the european institutions. this means that it is impossible to do what is necessary, namely, transferring more economic and fiscal competences to the european level.

and

5. and probably most importantly, because germany has been wage dumping for 20 years now. ever since reunification, government expenditures in germany have been cut and labor market reforms were implemented that kept german wages low. on top of that, the euro as a currency is severely undervalued when it comes to german productivity. the combination of relatively low wages and an undervalued currency allowes germany to sell high quality industrial goods for cheap on the international market. the downside to that is that germanys domestic market doesn't function, because people have less money to consume. in addition, germans are traditionally frugal and save money instead of spending it. so german businesses had to crank up their exports. at the same time, the other european countries could not compete with the german combination of a low wages, cheap currency and a highly efficient industrial sector. so what did they do to create growth? consume. what did they consume? german goods. how did they get the money to consume? by borrowing money. who did they borrow from? germany. why did german banks lend money to uncompetetive economies? because they could not invest in germany, because the state cut expenditures and the domestic market doesn't function. now, in order to get back those loans, germany is forcing these countries to cut expenditures to try and compete with the exporting machine that is the german industry, which is almost impossible to do. and even if it was, who is going to buy all these products? the germans aren't, their own population can't and their neighbors are busy trying to compete with the germans as well. in addition, 50% of german exports go into the eurozone. if these countries can no longer afford to consume german goods, because they want to become more competetive, who is germany going to sell their products to? germany needs to start spending and to increase wages in order to prop up the domestic market. for the eurzone and the common european market to function, germany, as the most powerful economy in the region, should be an absorber of overproduction in the rest of europe. german consumption should be fueling growth in the eu, but so far, things have been working the other way around and germany is refusing to change it's business model. as long as this is not adressed, the eurocrisis will not be solved.

that's in depth as fukk

if you wrote this a couple years earlier I might've stolen this, remixed it and put it in one of my university essays

 

[karim]

that's in depth as fukk

if you wrote this a couple years earlier I might've stolen this, remixed it and put it in one of my university essays

lol. if you're interested, here are a couple of links:

Sick German economy is dysfunctional, divisive and dangerous | CapX

The Euro’s Future Is Secure, But It May Not Be The One That We Expect

Too big to bail – how the banks crashed the eurozone