Hakeem Olajuwon should be in the GOAT debate...

[ISO]

Except to be in the GOAT debate, you can't really use a "not his fault" scale. You're in that discussion because of what you've proven and acheived, regardless, of what breaks you had/didn't have, otherwise, we'd be talking about that brother up North who was better than Jordan, that ain't get that break.

Dream's one of my all-time favourite players, but I think a lot of folks blur the lines of his peak and his entire career, where the latter ends up getting romanticized. His peak is undeniable, but before that his play was anything but of GOAT standard. Since he picked up the game late in life, it took him a while to get a feel for it; he had black-hole tendencies, ill-disciplined on defense, and it took him a long time to understand the concept of team-play. He's even spoken about this himself.

Thank you for some context because Hakeem career to nikkas is only '93-'95 and you would think he was the perfect basketball player with zero flaws.

Also when people talk about his supporting cast they ignore that the Rockets in that era were the best or one of the best three point shooting teams in basketball and he had the most clutch collection of players ever with Horry, Cassell, Smith, Elie having huge games or hitting huge shots in route to those rings and series wins.

 

[Blessings]

Still all time top 10

 

[murksiderock]

how do you figure that?

LeBron isn't in the same class as Kobe when it comes actual skill and basketball ability. All Bron has on Kobe is being a better passer and stat padder. Kobe has him beat at EVERYTHING else.

Kobe def had his own unique takeover mode, but he didn't blackout to the degree LeBron could reach. In any round of the postseason. Let's save the embarrassment of listing examples...

Kobe could not control the tempo and flow of a basketball game the way LeBron could. Not in the regular season and certainly not in the postseason, and not on both sides of the ball---->LeBron is an All-Time game-wrecker at his peak for the way he defensively shifted and contorted the opponent's offensive approach and gameplan...

Kobe was not a more clutch basketball player or greater in money time than LeBron. Not in the regular season and certainly not in the postseason...

As I've said before, of people can prefer Kobe for a variety of reasons; I've been a Kobe fan since my inception to the sport and I have no issue with that. But to say that he does everything better at basketball than pass over LeBron, isn't true and never was; we actually saw these guys play in the same league at the same time for a 13-year overlap....

 

[DropTopDoc]

I've lowkey felt this way. You can argue he's the GOAT defender, and on the other end could score with anyone. 2nd year in the league he beat Magic, Kareem, and Worthy in 5 to make the Finals and lost to one of the GOAT teams the 86 Celtics in 6. IN HIS 2ND YEAR!
Not his fault Ralph got hurt and they couldn't put a team behind him
And dude got Ws on everyone. He beat Kareem in his 2nd season, he sonned Ewing in the Finals, he SWEPT a Shaq and Penny who knocked out , he made a fool of MVP David Robinson, he won back-to-back titles, he won a title without anyone else on his team averaging more than 14ppg in 94 has anyone else in history done this?

Hakeem dominated the golden era of bigs, he beat every legendary big except obviously Wilt and Russell

this will get ignored

 

[Swagnificent]

to try to close the gap with Jordan

I don't rate players based on accomplishments stupid. So however good Pippen was has no bearing on how I rate Mike. If Mike had 0 rings I would still the feel the same way about him as I do now with 6 rings. Why do you think I made this thread stupid? Its because I feel Hakeem is way better than what people rate him because he only has 2 rings.

Some of ya'll are too dumb to talk hoops.

 

[Swagnificent]

Kobe def had his own unique takeover mode, but he didn't blackout to the degree LeBron could reach. In any round of the postseason. Let's save the embarrassment of listing examples...

Fukk outta here. Being the tallest midget doesn't make you tall. Just cause Bron dominated weak eastern conference teams doesn't make him more dominant than Kobe at taking over games. Celtics and Magic were the only common opponents both faced in the same playoff series ('08, '09, and '10) and the older versions of Kobe played just as well against them as a prime LeBron (and before you go crazy I've always maintained 2009 was LeBron's peak while 2003 was Kobe's peak when both were 24 years old). In '08 Kobe scored more efficiently than LeBron against the best version of the Celtics defense. In '09 they both killed the Magic but Kobe actually won the series while Bron let fukkin Dwight Howard eliminate him (an all-time embarrassing result). Then in '10 they both played the Celtics. Once again Kobe won while Bron lost. I wish 05-06 Kobe had a halfway decent supporting cast so we could see the sort of damage he would've done with a deep playoff run. Kobe unfortunately had a career where his prime were either wasted on a rebuilding team (05-06) or he had to share the ball with another dominant player in Shaq ('01-03) thus obscuring just how dominant he could have been if he was on his own.

Kobe could not control the tempo and flow of a basketball game the way LeBron could. Not in the regular season and certainly not in the postseason, and not on both sides of the ball---->LeBron is an All-Time game-wrecker at his peak for the way he defensively shifted and contorted the opponent's offensive approach and gameplan...

Total bullsh1t. Kobe controlled the game way better. And he did it without having the ball in his hands every possession relegating his teammates to spot up shooters. We already had this discussion in the thread on Bron ball. Bron's style of play is simply not conducive to winning like Kobe's. Its built for him to pad his stats to the detriment of his teammates. Kobe on the other hand played in the structured triangle offense and was able to control the game without dominating the ball and stunting his teammates ability.

Kobe was not a more clutch basketball player or greater in money time than LeBron. Not in the regular season and certainly not in the postseason...

Now I'm officially done talking seriously to you about basketball ever again. This might be the most retarded point ever made. Lemme guess your proof for this is those bullsh1t stats from ESPN claiming LeBron to be more clutch than Jordan or Kobe.

No human being who has ever watched Kobe Bryant and LeBron James play would ever trust LeBron in the clutch over Kobe if their life was on the line. Stats be damned. You know it. I know it. We all know it. To even try to suggest LeBron is on the same level as Kobe in the clutch is the height of delusion. Its like saying Tim Duncan is better than Hakeem and watching how NBA players react.

If you tried to tell NBA players that played against both that LeBron is more clutch than Kobe, they would slap you in the face.

 

[murksiderock]

Fukk outta here. Being the tallest midget doesn't make you tall. Just cause Bron dominated weak eastern conference teams doesn't make him more dominant than Kobe at taking over games. Celtics and Magic were the only common opponents both faced in the same playoff series ('08, '09, and '10) and the older versions of Kobe played just as well against them as a prime LeBron (even with his penchant for stad padding). In '08 Kobe was more efficient than LeBron against the best version of the Celtics. In '09 they both killed the Magic statistically but Kobe actually won the series. Then in '10 they both played the Celtics. Once again Kobe won while Bron lost. I wish 05-06 Kobe had a halfway decent supporting cast so we could see the sort of damage he would've done with a deep playoff run. Kobe unfortunately had a career where his prime was wasted on a rebuilding team.



Total bullsh1t. Kobe controlled the game way better. And he did it without having the ball in his hands every possession relegating his teammates to spot up shooters. We already had this discussion in the thread on Bron ball. Bron's style of play is simply not conducive to winning like Kobe's.



Now I'm officially done talking seriously to you about basketball ever again. This might be the most retarded point ever made. Lemme guess your proof for this is those bullsh1t stats from ESPN claiming LeBron to be more clutch than Jordan or Kobe.

No human being who has ever watched Kobe Bryant and LeBron James play would ever trust LeBron in the clutch over Kobe if their life was on the line. Stats be damned. You know it. I know it. We all know it.

Kobe's style of play was so conducive to winning that he couldn't even win a playoff series without a dominant big. Kobe's style of play was so conducive to winning he missed the postseason smack in the middle of his prime. His style of play was so conducive to winning that without the triangle he "led" the '13 Lakers to a 7-seed, when did he ever show that his style of play was such a winning brand of ball without Phil guiding his hand?

As usual, you contradict yourself mid-post: Kobe having not enough help in '06 is okay, but he has more help than LeBron in '08, '09, and '10, and you're beating your chest on him beating teams LeBron lost to with a shyttier supporting cast....

Can't make up your mind which way you wanna go on this, not surprising...

We saw Kobe in G7's, we saw him in final seconds, we saw him down in series, we saw all these things. He never performed better against the odds or under the highest level of pressure than LeBron...

I'll leave it at this though, since the thread is about Hakeem. Either basketball is a team game or it isn't. Either it matters repeatedly losing in a round or it doesn't, and there's no way to justify losing in Rd1 as greater than losing later...

Either it matters how you perform in the playoffs or it doesn't. Either it matters how you perform as an underdog or it doesn't. Either it matters how you perform in a variety of systems, teammates, and circumstances outside your control or it doesnt. Because whichever way you go, you gotta hold all the greats to that standard...

 

[R=G]

Nah..he wouldn't be world champion if Jordan had not retired after his father's fall

 

[Swagnificent]

Kobe's style of play was so conducive to winning that he couldn't even win a playoff series without a dominant big.

Kobe won back to back rings with Pau Gasol.

A guy who before he joined Kobe was a 1-time all-star who never made an All-NBA team or averaged at least 21 PPG in a season. You consider that a "dominant big"? If so, then I guess Kevin Love musta been a "super dominant big" considering his resume before he joined LeBron shyts all over Gasol's resume before he joined Kobe. I actually made an entire thread on this topic a few years ago: https://www.thecoli.com/threads/let...with-a-sidekick-worse-than-kevin-love.625101/

If you consider Gasol to be dominant then LeBron had a 3rd option for all 3 of his rings (Bosh and Love) that was better than Kobe's 2nd option for his 2 rings without Shaq.

Kobe's 2 rings post-Shaq with Gasol shows how he was on a totally different level than Bron when it comes to winning. He won titles with a guy who was worse than LeBron's 3rd option for all 3 of his rings.

 

[OGBobbyJohnson]

 

[Po pimp]

 

[mvp_status]

For context.....March 1990 (16 games):

26 points per game
15.3 rebounds per game
3.8 assists per game
6.1 blocks per game
2.8 steals per game

and had a quad double game mixed in there (18 pts - 16 reb - 10 assist - 11 blks on 3/29/90)

 

[Po pimp]

For context.....March 1990 (16 games):

26 points per game
15.3 rebounds per game
3.8 assists per game
6.1 blocks per game
2.8 steals per game

and had a quad double game mixed in there (18 pts - 16 reb - 10 assist - 11 blks on 3/29/90)

And he didn't win player of the month. Jordan did averaging:

36.4ppg (55%)/8.1rpg/5.9apg/0.7bpg/3.8spg

Hakeem did win in April though