Has anyone noticed Kyrie Irving only plays well at home?
- Thread starter Saiyajin
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Funnily enough, OP is actually a Cavs fan. So he claims.
So Lebron's got defense.
So Lebron's got rebounding.
Except it matters more than you're claiming. Forget stat-padding easy boards - Lebron has 14 offensive rebounds already this series in just five games, 2nd among all players (trailing only TT, of course). Kyrie only has 4 offensive boards. That's 10 additional possessions he created for his team. You can say he's closer to the basket, but that's just something that makes him more valuable. Switch Lebron with anyone else who can do the other things he does, and there's no way he's getting 12 boards, 3 offensive, every game.
And whether Kyrie is doing his job boxing out is debateable. Little Steph has 8 offensive boards in the series, twice as many as Kyrie has.
So you're admitting that Lebron's done more of it, just that Kyrie hasn't done it because he's "taken it upon himself to score"...which of course then inflates his scoring stats.
So Lebron has been more valuable with creating buckets for other players.
And again, you're minimizing the impact. The Cavs have scored nearly 100 points off of Lebron assists in the 5 games of this series. It's not just the fact that he's averaging 8 assists/game, but that he sets up a lot of threes. Nearly 20 ppg off of Lebron's assists alone. Take out Lebron's assists, and JR has barely hit a three all series. Take out Lebron's assists, and Jefferson has barely scored. A lot of Kyrie's scoring has come off of Lebron's assists.
It's true that he's turned the ball over too much...the only defense I have to that is that half those turnovers came in the two blowouts, so they weren't immensely consequential. But he did have one really bad turnover game in a closer game.
You're picking up ridiculous hater narratives now.
14 point lead with 8 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Against Golden State. Yep, the game was basically over!
Most of those 21 points were between the 8:06 mark and the 2:44 mark of the 3rd quarter. GS obviously could have threatened - there was a moment in the 3rd when they scored 11 points in just 4 possessions (5:32 to 3:51), and then another where they scored 9 points in 3 possessions (1:57 to 0:50).
That's 20 points GS scored in less than 3 minutes of game time, over just two stretches. And they do that sort of thing ALL THE TIME. Acting like Lebron's scoring in that frame didn't count just because the Cavs had a double-digit lead for the moment is stupidity.
Why did the Cavs stay safely out in front? Because Lebron was pouring the ball into the basket.
And Lebron's last points were scored with 6:11 left in the game. Kyrie scored 5 more points after Lebron was done scoring (and 11 overall in that same "3rd quarter and 15-point-lead") stretch. In fact, in the last 14:30 of the game they had nearly the same point total - it's only during that stretch in the middle of the 3rd that Lebron was especially going off, and the Cavs wanted every one of those buckets to keep GS from getting right back into the game. So are we eliminating Kryie's last 5 points in that game, which were much more pointless than Lebron's?
A 7-point game with 1:12 left is not "basically over". Wasn't Lebron just in a Finals where they overcame a 5-point lead with just 28 seconds left? All they needed was one stop and 1 missed free throw, and they're in the game. They didn't get either.
I'll agree the game was basically over when the lead was at 9 with 40 seconds left. But in the last 31 seconds of the game, Kyrie had 2 points to go along with Lebron's 4. So your whole narrative is reduced to "Lebron had 2 more garbage-time points than Kyrie did".
Lebron's averaging 28/game on 50/38/68 splits. Kyrie's averaging 28/game on 49/41/91 splits. And the idea that Lebron's only the same because of garbage time is shown to be ridiculous under the light. About all you can say is that Lebron should have made 2-3 more free throws. If Kyrie has any advantage in the scoring, it's a minor one.
Defense: Lebron
Rebounding: Lebron
Shot Creation: Lebron (with too many turnovers though)
Scoring: Push, possibly very slight advantage to Kyrie
Sorry, but Lebron's clearly been more valuable all-around in this series than Kyrie has.
Right now, Lebron is 1 point away from leading ALL players in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. That's just a "box score" number, but it's still completely ridiculous. If the Cavs manage to win this series while Lebron's scoring more points than Steph or Kyrie, more boards than TT or Green, more assists than Steph or Green, more steals than Steph or Green or Kyrie, and more blocks than Bogut or Green....that would be insane.
If Green was doing the exact same things that Lebron is doing, and Steph was playing like Kyrie, there wouldn't be a question - Green would be the pick over Steph for MVP in a heartbeat. And Lebron should be too, if he keeps it up and the Cavs win.
The only reason this is even being talked about is that everyone "expects" Lebron to play like an MVP in every game of his life, while Kyrie being even in the same ballpark is surprising.
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It's not as simple as this for the fact that there's more that goes on in the game than the bold (in a general frame), and they all don't have the same equal value as one another (I don't understand this shot creation nonsense when the success they've had on offense is mostly down to Kyrie). Kyrie has basically been the aggressor and he has built the foundation that has had them either keeping pace with the Warriors or is the one lead that has built the initial leads (you'll see this in G1, G3, G4 and G5). Not just from the points he scores but from the way he attacks the Warriors' defense before it's stationary; setting off a chain reaction which puts Cleveland on the front foot. Whereas LeBron has been the opposite - his style has actually stagnated Cleveland's offense (aside from Game 5) for most of the series, and without Kyrie taking it upon himself (basically from Game 3) to change the pace and their direction on offense - this series would've been over.
Game 2 is evident of how the series would've gone (and ended in the Warriors sweeping or winning 4-1) if Kyrie didn't set the tone in the following game and allowed LeBron to control their possessions. He was the series changer and if only marginally has been their most important player up to this point.
So Lebron's got defense.
So Lebron's got rebounding.
Except it matters more than you're claiming. Forget stat-padding easy boards - Lebron has 14 offensive rebounds already this series in just five games, 2nd among all players (trailing only TT, of course). Kyrie only has 4 offensive boards. That's 10 additional possessions he created for his team. You can say he's closer to the basket, but that's just something that makes him more valuable. Switch Lebron with anyone else who can do the other things he does, and there's no way he's getting 12 boards, 3 offensive, every game.
And whether Kyrie is doing his job boxing out is debateable. Little Steph has 8 offensive boards in the series, twice as many as Kyrie has.
So you're admitting that Lebron's done more of it, just that Kyrie hasn't done it because he's "taken it upon himself to score"...which of course then inflates his scoring stats.
So Lebron has been more valuable with creating buckets for other players.
And again, you're minimizing the impact. The Cavs have scored nearly 100 points off of Lebron assists in the 5 games of this series. It's not just the fact that he's averaging 8 assists/game, but that he sets up a lot of threes. Nearly 20 ppg off of Lebron's assists alone. Take out Lebron's assists, and JR has barely hit a three all series. Take out Lebron's assists, and Jefferson has barely scored. A lot of Kyrie's scoring has come off of Lebron's assists.
It's true that he's turned the ball over too much...the only defense I have to that is that half those turnovers came in the two blowouts, so they weren't immensely consequential. But he did have one really bad turnover game in a closer game.
You're picking up ridiculous hater narratives now.
14 point lead with 8 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Against Golden State. Yep, the game was basically over!
Most of those 21 points were between the 8:06 mark and the 2:44 mark of the 3rd quarter. GS obviously could have threatened - there was a moment in the 3rd when they scored 11 points in just 4 possessions (5:32 to 3:51), and then another where they scored 9 points in 3 possessions (1:57 to 0:50).
That's 20 points GS scored in less than 3 minutes of game time, over just two stretches. And they do that sort of thing ALL THE TIME. Acting like Lebron's scoring in that frame didn't count just because the Cavs had a double-digit lead for the moment is stupidity.
Why did the Cavs stay safely out in front? Because Lebron was pouring the ball into the basket.
And Lebron's last points were scored with 6:11 left in the game. Kyrie scored 5 more points after Lebron was done scoring (and 11 overall in that same "3rd quarter and 15-point-lead") stretch. In fact, in the last 14:30 of the game they had nearly the same point total - it's only during that stretch in the middle of the 3rd that Lebron was especially going off, and the Cavs wanted every one of those buckets to keep GS from getting right back into the game. So are we eliminating Kryie's last 5 points in that game, which were much more pointless than Lebron's?
A 7-point game with 1:12 left is not "basically over". Wasn't Lebron just in a Finals where they overcame a 5-point lead with just 28 seconds left? All they needed was one stop and 1 missed free throw, and they're in the game. They didn't get either.
I'll agree the game was basically over when the lead was at 9 with 40 seconds left. But in the last 31 seconds of the game, Kyrie had 2 points to go along with Lebron's 4. So your whole narrative is reduced to "Lebron had 2 more garbage-time points than Kyrie did".
Lebron's averaging 28/game on 50/38/68 splits. Kyrie's averaging 28/game on 49/41/91 splits. And the idea that Lebron's only the same because of garbage time is shown to be ridiculous under the light. About all you can say is that Lebron should have made 2-3 more free throws. If Kyrie has any advantage in the scoring, it's a minor one.
Defense: Lebron
Rebounding: Lebron
Shot Creation: Lebron (with too many turnovers though)
Scoring: Push, possibly very slight advantage to Kyrie
Sorry, but Lebron's clearly been more valuable all-around in this series than Kyrie has.
Right now, Lebron is 1 point away from leading ALL players in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. That's just a "box score" number, but it's still completely ridiculous. If the Cavs manage to win this series while Lebron's scoring more points than Steph or Kyrie, more boards than TT or Green, more assists than Steph or Green, more steals than Steph or Green or Kyrie, and more blocks than Bogut or Green....that would be insane.
If Green was doing the exact same things that Lebron is doing, and Steph was playing like Kyrie, there wouldn't be a question - Green would be the pick over Steph for MVP in a heartbeat. And Lebron should be too, if he keeps it up and the Cavs win.
The only reason this is even being talked about is that everyone "expects" Lebron to play like an MVP in every game of his life, while Kyrie being even in the same ballpark is surprising.
you destroyed him man....