Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau Comparison Grid

JahFocus CS

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Look at how it was put into practice. It didn't work out like that. Simply another elite, the party elite, came to take over the place occupied prior to the communist revolution by the royalty or capitalist elite. That's why it should no longer be taken seriously - because it has been attempted, ostensibly at least, and failed not only to succeed but even to meet its own criteria. Moreover the philosophical foundation for communism itself has been destroyed. If you're familiar with Marx, you will know he talked a lot about dialectical materialism, his own take on the Hegelian dialectic. For a dialectician like Marx, communism is the anti-thesis created in response to the particularly brutal form of capitalism that was in vogue during the early 19th century. I mean you had children working 96 hour weeks as chimney sweeps in the cities :mjcry: - that shyt does not happen anymore. Capitalism has changed, the thesis has changed; so communism as the anti-thesis must change with it. But it hasn't really.

But mainly the issue I have with communism (like libertarianism) is that it has a far too idealistic vision of what humans are actually like. In the USSR for example everybody was guaranteed a job no matter how bad they were at it.

Just imagine, you're working your ass off mining coal or working in a factory. You put your heart and soul into your work. There's nothing more important to you than mining coal. Then you look over to see your colleague, who shows up drunk and sleeps through every shift, and no disciplinary action is going to be taken against him for his behaviour. He's going to take home the same pay as you do, too. Pretty soon you're going to lose your own motivation and drive, because why put your heart and soul into a backbreaking job like coal mining when you get exactly the same out of work for goofing off? And this problem seeps into all other fields of employment, too. The incentive argument is really important I think, and there is no sufficient communist solution to providing people incentive to push themselves and push the boundaries of human knowledge.

So to conclude, I think Marxism is fantastic for understanding what is wrong with capitalism, but not worth studying for solutions to capitalism.

I'll get at this post when I get a chance later, but this is off base IMO... Marx's critique was not solely premised on abstract moral pontifications about what was "too much" or "too brutal," he was focused on the class dynamics driving society, which have not changed. Whether child labor is still in vogue is irrelevant to the nature of capitalism, the source of profits, etc.
 

CACtain Planet

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If people understand how to critically think and be logical beings I think that leads to a better society anyway.

State indoctrinates though forcing the regurgitating of information

A good education teaches one to think critically

Im going to put it to you bluntly..With America's diversity of population and history, I dont want any CAC school to prison pipeline conductor (public education teacher) indoctrinating black children about the virtues of serving the state to keep up with the idea that "Individual wills are subordinate to the general (collective) will"..that would be the situation if America was strictly a Rousseauian type society because you cannot dispel history from society..Societal structures go hand in hand with culture and history
 

Shogun

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Applying 17th/18th century European political thought to the 21st century political spectrum is problematic, in my opinion.
Conservative and liberal are relative terms that only have meaning when placed in the context of a particular era.

Adam Smith's free market capitalism was identified as economic liberalism, for example. Today, conservatives are pro-free market capitalism.
The spectrum has reversed, making modern day liberals more aligned with Hobbes's basic point of powerful centralized government, and modern day conservatives more aligned with Locke's basic point of limited government.

Rousseau's contention that society fundamentally corrupts man can and has been used to justify both sides of the spectrum (Republicanism of the French Revolution, Marxism, & National Socialism to name a few).
 

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Applying 17th/18th century European political thought to the 21st century political spectrum is problematic, in my opinion.
Conservative and liberal are relative terms that only have meaning when placed in the context of a particular era.

Adam Smith's free market capitalism was identified as economic liberalism, for example. Today, conservatives are pro-free market capitalism.
The spectrum has reversed, making modern day liberals more aligned with Hobbes's basic point of powerful centralized government, and modern day conservatives more aligned with Locke's basic point of limited government.

Rousseau's contention that society fundamentally corrupts man can and has been used to justify both sides of the spectrum (Republicanism of the French Revolution, Marxism, & National Socialism to name a few).
:yeshrug: This is really a incredible distortion of these guys.

Only in America have the terms "switched" In every other part of the world they maintain their classical meanings.

Also,

Free market theories such Smith's were designed to operate without the threat of economic tyranny by the state.

Corporations as they are now were a non-entity back then BUT many now take the roll that the state was back then so its fair to assume that he would frown down upon corporate tyranny.

Most modern day liberals I know are not fans of a powerful centralized state as so much a state that guarantees the equal rights of all citizens.

Most modern day conservatives, well they believe in a strong military, strong central police state and a strong surveillance state. Many also do not adhere to the economic liberalism Smith talked about as well.

 

BaggerofTea

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Im going to put it to you bluntly..With America's diversity of population and history, I dont want any CAC school to prison pipeline conductor (public education teacher) indoctrinating black children about the virtues of serving the state to keep up with the idea that "Individual wills are subordinate to the general (collective) will"..that would be the situation if America was strictly a Rousseauian type society because you cannot dispel history from society..Societal structures go hand in hand with culture and history
:yeshrug: I understand this
 

Grano-Grano

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Applying 17th/18th century European political thought to the 21st century political spectrum is problematic, in my opinion.
Conservative and liberal are relative terms that only have meaning when placed in the context of a particular era.

Adam Smith's free market capitalism was identified as economic liberalism, for example. Today, conservatives are pro-free market capitalism.
The spectrum has reversed, making modern day liberals more aligned with Hobbes's basic point of powerful centralized government, and modern day conservatives more aligned with Locke's basic point of limited government.

Rousseau's contention that society fundamentally corrupts man can and has been used to justify both sides of the spectrum (Republicanism of the French Revolution, Marxism, & National Socialism to name a few).

This man gets it
 

Shogun

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:yeshrug: This is really a incredible distortion of these guys.

Only in America have the terms "switched" In every other part of the world they maintain their classical meanings.

Also,

Free market theories such Smith's were designed to operate without the threat of economic tyranny by the state.

Corporations as they are now were a non-entity back then BUT many now take the roll that the state was back then so its fair to assume that he would frown down upon corporate tyranny.

Most modern day liberals I know are not fans of a powerful centralized state as so much a state that guarantees the equal rights of all citizens.

Most modern day conservatives, well they believe in a strong military, strong central police state and a strong surveillance state. Many also do not adhere to the economic liberalism Smith talked about as well.


An incredible distortion, huh? You can disagree with it, but it's a pretty basic rational used in the majority of western scholarship.

Your point on Locke, for example, is rather easy to disprove. The Wealth of Nations was published in 1776, a full century after Britain experienced it's financial revolution and created debt based finance in which global trade corporations infiltrated and dominated the government.
350px-UK_GDP.png


It wasn't until John Stuart Mill and the application of Bentham's Utilitarianism that Liberalism began relying heavily on government to protect individual liberties. Locke believed that people were fundamentally good and rationale, thereby making the intervention of government in such matters unnecessary. He was more concerned with government taking away those liberties than he was with citizens taking them from other citizens (like today's regulation fearing republicans).

But, sure...an incredible distortion :yeshrug:
Edit: The video you posted supports my point :francis:
 
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In all governments, there is a perpetual intestine struggle, open or secret, between Authority and Liberty; and neither of them can ever absolutely prevail in the contest. A great sacrifice of liberty must necessarily be made in every government; yet even the authority, which confines liberty, can never, and perhaps ought never, in any constitution, to become quite entire and uncontroulable.
 

BaggerofTea

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An incredible distortion, huh? You can disagree with it, but it's a pretty basic rational used in the majority of western scholarship.

Your point on Locke, for example, is rather easy to disprove. The Wealth of Nations was published in 1776, a full century after Britain experienced it's financial revolution and created debt based finance in which global trade corporations infiltrated and dominated the government.
350px-UK_GDP.png


It wasn't until John Stuart Mill and the application of Bentham's Utilitarianism that Liberalism began relying heavily on government to protect individual liberties. Locke believed that people were fundamentally good and rationale, thereby making the intervention of government in such matters unnecessary. He was more concerned with government taking away those liberties than he was with citizens taking them from other citizens (like today's regulation fearing republicans).

But, sure...an incredible distortion :yeshrug:
Edit: The video you posted supports my point :francis:

You are distorting these philosophies by incorrectly defining the modern conservative and liberal paradigms.

Conservatives since Nixon have become less economically liberal than liberal Democrats for example
 
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