:huhldup: Gawker: We Need Fewer College Graduates

[mbewane]

For Coli/sohh poster you seem to have grip on reality.

Raising taxes in the worst economy since the depression doesn't seem like great idea either.

People want those European socialist economies, and those economies have been characterized by high unemployment and low growth for decades--some notable exceptions exist.


What we are experiencing now is just par for the course. It's not going to get any better. We will never experience the growth of the Tech boom or the housing boom ever again in our adult lives.

Coming from a European "socialist" economy myself, let's not get it confused: I still believe more in government intervention as opposed to the conservative US view of "free-market" (which isn't free at all). What many Americans fail to understand is that Western European economies are not "socialist" at all, they're market economies with a strong social component functionning as a buffer, and the government invests where it has to invest (infrastructure, health, education, culture, etc...). A lot of Americans seem to think that Europe is some kind of ex-USSR just because we have good social security and (almost) free education

 

[mbewane]

To be honest it isn't THAT expensive,

good universities are ridiculously expensive. people used to be able to work their way through college and graduate with NO debt. that is impossible now. when you graduated college, you were expected to buy a house. now people graduate and owe enough money to buy a house, except they dont have a house. its just another form of slavery, to keep people in debt and working without being able to afford property.

I was saying that travelling abroad and gaining experience abroad isn't that expensive, wasn't talking about college education. I know that's ridiculously expensive in the States (in the UK too if I'm not mistaken).

 

[VerbalIntercourse]

Coming from a European "socialist" economy myself, let's not get it confused: I still believe more in government intervention as opposed to the conservative US view of "free-market" (which isn't free at all). What many Americans fail to understand is that Western European economies are not "socialist" at all, they're market economies with a strong social component functionning as a buffer, and the government invests where it has to invest (infrastructure, health, education, culture, etc...). A lot of Americans seem to think that Europe is some kind of ex-USSR just because we have good social security and (almost) free education

has that fixed the problems of the French Suburbs?

The ethnic groups that started those riots are some of the most well off people in the united states. The American system WAS better for motivated and driven people. It's not like that anymore, and I believe that is because of this move towards the European ideal.

 

[Serious]

Throughout the European Union, unemployment among those aged 15 to 24 is soaring — 22 percent in France, 51 percent in Spain, 36 percent in Italy. But those are only percentages among those looking for work. There is another category: those who are “not in employment, education or training,” or NEETs, as the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development calls them. And according to a study by the European Union’s research agency, Eurofound, there are as many as 14 million out-of-work and disengaged young Europeans, costing member states an estimated 153 billion euros, or about $200 billion, a year in welfare benefits and lost production — 1.2 percent of the bloc’s gross domestic product.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/w...d-employment-elusive.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[mbewane]

has that fixed the problems of the French Suburbs?

The ethnic groups that started those riots are some of the most well off people in the united states. The American system WAS better for motivated and driven people. It's not like that anymore, and I believe that is because of this move towards the European ideal.

Well we have riots, you kill each other

Anyway when is the last time you heard of riots in the french suburbs? Last ones I know of were in 2005. Or maybe you meant the riots in London, capital of a well-known "socialist" country

And what do you mean by "the ethnic group that started those riots are some of the most well off people in the US"? What ethnic group are you talking about

What is this "European ideal" you're talking about? And when/how did the US move towards it?

 

[mbewane]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/w...d-employment-elusive.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

That indeed is fukked up, and the article does somewhat back up the notion that education must be better aligned with the needs of the market. But I'll also say that the western countries that have been hit the worst by this (Spain and Italy) are precisely the ones where "free-market" policies have been pushed quite far (by Aznar and Berlusconi), with hardly any social buffers. And those countries actually are more in debt than the "socialist" countries, go figure. No one's talking about France or Belgium reaching a "fiscal cliff" or going bankrupt.

Complicated issue, because those social buffers cost money, which come from taxes, that in turn makes it more expensive for a boss to recruit someone. But if you lower the taxes, you end up in situations like Southern European countries, or in Belgium bringing in firms like ArcelorMittal, who just closed their steel implant in Liège after paying...less than 2 % taxes to the state and giving a big middle finger to the country after benefiting from those tax cuts.

Again, I think that in some way you have to be able to naviguate somewhere in the middle, but for the moment EU countries where there are the most problems are precisely the ones where social buffers are weak. And the "solution" -cutting even deeper- is only making it worse. People really think that the economy with get better by injecting less money in it

 

[Serious]

That indeed is fukked up, and the article does somewhat back up the notion that education must be better aligned with the needs of the market. But I'll also say that the western countries that have been hit the worst by this (Spain and Italy) are precisely the ones where "free-market" policies have been pushed quite far (by Aznar and Berlusconi), with hardly any social buffers. And those countries actually are more in debt than the "socialist" countries, go figure. No one's talking about France or Belgium reaching a "fiscal cliff" or going bankrupt.

It still looks pretty bad. I saw a clip of the other day about factory workers at a car company in France, that protested for over 11 days. The company sent in about 200 loyal goons from another plant in France, to make sure, sure the protest remained peaceful. Sh*t kind of reminded me of Ford's practices during the early 1900's...

Also isn't GB, trying to break away from the EU. How come Germany is straight sh*tting on France in terms of GDP? Germany ended the year several billions in the surplus, meanwhile France was like 80billion in the deficit.

Complicated issue, because those social buffers cost money, which come from taxes, that in turn makes it more expensive for a boss to recruit someone. But if you lower the taxes, you end up in situations like Southern European countries, or in Belgium bringing in firms like ArcelorMittal, who just closed their steel implant in Liège after paying...less than 2 % taxes to the state and giving a big middle finger to the country after benefiting from those tax cuts.

Again, I think that in some way you have to be able to naviguate somewhere in the middle, but for the moment EU countries where there are the most problems are precisely the ones where social buffers are weak. And the "solution" -cutting even deeper- is only making it worse. People really think that the economy with get better by injecting less money in it

Yeah there's denying a safety net should be in place, paid for via taxes. That something people in the US, hate for some reason. People want all the amenities of a developed nation, without financing it...


It seems like common sense that circulating more money into the economy, is more beneficial than, cutting taxes / programs

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF3kNt0cZU4"]Young Jeezy - Circulate OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO - YouTube[/ame]

 

[mbewane]

It still looks pretty bad. I saw a clip of the other day about factory workers at a car company in France, that protested for over 11 days. The company sent in about 200 loyal goons from another plant in France, to make sure, sure the protest remained peaceful. Sh*t kind of reminded me of Ford's practices during the early 1900's...

Also isn't GB, trying to break away from the EU. How come Germany is straight sh*tting on France in terms of GDP? Germany ended the year several billions in the surplus, meanwhile France was like 80billion in the deficit.



Yeah there's denying a safety net should be in place, paid for via taxes. That something people in the US, hate for some reason. People want all the amenities of a developed nation, without financing it...


It seems like common sense that circulating more money into the economy, is more beneficial than, cutting taxes / programs

Young Jeezy - Circulate OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO - YouTube

Oh for sure you have very bad situations, but again we have to consider the context: those plants are closing BECAUSE of neo-liberalist policies (shipping those activities in "more competitive" lands -meaning with lower wages, no social security, and no trade unions) and precisely because the state has lost much of its power to take necessary action. But here is where I differ with other "left-minded" people: instead of calling for nationalization () I say we need to stop putting public money in those old industries, throw most of them in the bushes () and seriously invest in new technologies, such as green energy for example. Also make no mistake, it is true that all these workers will lose their job, but this is France: they will receive unemployment benefits, they won't lose their houses, kids will still go to school and university, they won't have to sell their cars or whatever. I say social buffers comes in handy in situations like these, they'll probably agree.


Also the UK is thinking about leaving the EU, but it's much more complex than just about the debt crisis or whatever: the UK has never really felt totally part of the EU to begin with, it's just that now is the perfect time to maybe put it up for referendum and it allows Cameron to not be "out-brittained" by other parties on his right, and it forces "left" parties (Labour and Dems) to clarify their stance, pro-Europe (which may make them lose votes) or not (which would go against what they've been telling lately). Don't forget, the UK tried to set up a concurrent to the EU that would be only about trade, they were the first to ask for "opt-outs", and to "Get their money back". So we all know how they feel about the EU, and it's been that way since the 70s. Better question would be: why did they still feel they wanted to be part of it even though they don't like the idea of it? Because it is still to their economic and political advantage, just like for all other EU members. Personnaly, I'd rather have them leave so that Europe can further consolidate and build something new without having them always bickering about this or that. (but that's for another debate).

 

[TheBigBopper]

Naw. I'm dead serious. She's the daughter of a guy that I work with. The running joke is that he payed 40k for his daughter to be stripper. She's currently cheerleading for the local d-league basketball team and living in her parents basement

I know someone like this too. Going to some fourth tier, open admissions college and paying $30K+/year to study fukking dance

 

[TheBigBopper]

For example, if budgets were reallocated, taxes were raised on the super rich and good education were better funded and came as a package with citizenship, the fool who thinks that Lil Wayne is the GOAT and who I don't trust with the vote can be better educated. He could learn to think critically, and practically about the world, because, in the end, political science, philosophy, economics, sociology, etc, offer lenses. Good education in those subjects helps people see their own position clearly, and informs whatever practical endeavor they seek in life. Good education in this sense can help bring down to earth the interested corporations benefitting from that fool's consumerist ignorance, and also make for a wiser, more critical and skepitcal citizenry that knows whats going down, holds leaders accountable (and doesn't think Lil Wayne is the GOAT).

Wikipedia can do this way more efficiently than subsidizing people's tuition.


Or better yet, we can teach these concepts in high school.

 

[TheBigBopper]

Those low level "STEM" jobs pay at most 40-50K a year. Who can live off that? it's impossible.

You're critique of public perception of STEM is noted, but is there an alternative?

It's not finance/economics. They only hire from the most prestigious schools.

That's it. Every other major is not worth the time or the effort.

Just tell poor black kids to get on the affirmative action train

 

[No1]

Oh for sure you have very bad situations, but again we have to consider the context: those plants are closing BECAUSE of neo-liberalist policies (shipping those activities in "more competitive" lands -meaning with lower wages, no social security, and no trade unions) and precisely because the state has lost much of its power to take necessary action. But here is where I differ with other "left-minded" people: instead of calling for nationalization () I say we need to stop putting public money in those old industries, throw most of them in the bushes () and seriously invest in new technologies, such as green energy for example. Also make no mistake, it is true that all these workers will lose their job, but this is France: they will receive unemployment benefits, they won't lose their houses, kids will still go to school and university, they won't have to sell their cars or whatever. I say social buffers comes in handy in situations like these, they'll probably agree.


Also the UK is thinking about leaving the EU, but it's much more complex than just about the debt crisis or whatever: the UK has never really felt totally part of the EU to begin with, it's just that now is the perfect time to maybe put it up for referendum and it allows Cameron to not be "out-brittained" by other parties on his right, and it forces "left" parties (Labour and Dems) to clarify their stance, pro-Europe (which may make them lose votes) or not (which would go against what they've been telling lately). Don't forget, the UK tried to set up a concurrent to the EU that would be only about trade, they were the first to ask for "opt-outs", and to "Get their money back". So we all know how they feel about the EU, and it's been that way since the 70s. Better question would be: why did they still feel they wanted to be part of it even though they don't like the idea of it? Because it is still to their economic and political advantage, just like for all other EU members. Personnaly, I'd rather have them leave so that Europe can further consolidate and build something new without having them always bickering about this or that. (but that's for another debate).

Honestly though, the shyt that happened with Greece and all the other problems pretty much made GB look like they were right. It's been a couple of years since I studied the EU in college, but I remember even writing in college that GB would probably leave. My prof was a German guy who was pro-EU and I liked him a lot, but the British are the British.

 

[G-Zeus]

you guys are about to be shytted on like it happens to us who live in Quebec canada..

the created "cegeps"

sub college 2 - 3 years program...

shyt will eat your soul away and make you drop out of school

 

[mbewane]

Honestly though, the shyt that happened with Greece and all the other problems pretty much made GB look like they were right. It's been a couple of years since I studied the EU in college, but I remember even writing in college that GB would probably leave. My prof was a German guy who was pro-EU and I liked him a lot, but the British are the British.

Problems in Greece aren't linked to the fact they are in the EU, but to the fact that they have been managing their country extremely poorly (corruption, people not paying taxes, investing billions in the military because of some phatom turkish threath etc.). It is true that on the one side, had they not been in the Eurozone they MAY have been able to devaluate their money in order to pay off their debt (never the best solution, but still a solution) but the very fact that they are in the eurozone is why other EU countries have been bailing them out. Without EU help, the country would have exploded already some time ago.

And yeah, it's a matter of time before the Brits leave the EU, this period is kind of a perfect opportunity (excuse) for them to do so, I say the sooner the better so we can stop this hypocritical relationship and keep on building a more integrated EU. GB has never wanted a real European project to emerge, so those who do can't go on with them.

 

[No1]

Problems in Greece aren't linked to the fact they are in the EU, but to the fact that they have been managing their country extremely poorly (corruption, people not paying taxes, investing billions in the military because of some phatom turkish threath etc.). It is true that on the one side, had they not been in the Eurozone they MAY have been able to devaluate their money in order to pay off their debt (never the best solution, but still a solution) but the very fact that they are in the eurozone is why other EU countries have been bailing them out. Without EU help, the country would have exploded already some time ago.

And yeah, it's a matter of time before the Brits leave the EU, this period is kind of a perfect opportunity (excuse) for them to do so, I say the sooner the better so we can stop this hypocritical relationship and keep on building a more integrated EU. GB has never wanted a real European project to emerge, so those who do can't go on with them.

Your first paragraph isn't my point though. What I mean is that they would not get behind having their currency tied to others. Especially, nations like Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. With the EU's struggles they now look vindicated.