INTERESTING STAT IN KOBE VS. JORDAN DEBATE.

FlexPavilion

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AND MJ STOLE FROM DR. J... ITS THE CYCLE OF EVOLUTION. JORDAN DID SAY KOBE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD BEAT HIM 1-ON-1 THO
What exactly did Jordan steal from Dr. J? Did Dr. J have a patented go-to move? I think people say MJ stole from Dr. J because they were both athletic high flyers. The only thing I say MJ stole from Dr. J was the free throw dunk in the dunk contest. Even if he did steal from Dr. J's game, Jordan ended up with way more accolades than Erving. Kobe stole from MJ (most notably the fade-away) but Kobe's accolades aren't on par with MJ's.
 

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Kobe quit on his team against Phoenix!!!! Doesn't change the fact that overall he did well against the Suns....


KOBE NEVER QUIT ON HIS TEAM....EVER. THAT GAME AGAINST PHOENIX WAS ALREADY OVER. KOBE WAS INSTRUCTED BY PHIL TO GET HIS TEAM GOING BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY HOPE THEY HAD FOR A MIRACULOUS COMEBACK...CONFIRMED BY PHIL. TRY AGAIN.
 

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What exactly did Jordan steal from Dr. J? Did Dr. J have a patented go-to move? I think people say MJ stole from Dr. J because they were both athletic high flyers. The only thing I say MJ stole from Dr. J was the free throw dunk in the dunk contest. Even if he did steal from Dr. J's game, Jordan ended up with way more accolades than Erving. Kobe stole from MJ (most notably the fade-away) but Kobe's accolades aren't on par with MJ's.


LMAO JORDAN STOLE THE FADEAWAY TOO....AND DR. J'S WHOLE SWAG WAS JACKED BY MJ, ARE U KIDDIN ME? JORDAN HAS MORE ACCOLADES BECAUSE HE WAS PUT IN A PERFECT SITUATION AND GIVEN THE ULTIMATE PUSH BY THE NBA....GIVE JORDAN SMUSH AND KWAME IN HIS PRIME+ANTI-MJ AGENDA BY THE LEAGUE DUE TO A RAPE TRIAL, AND HE WOULDNT HAVE HALF THE ACCOLADES HE HAS.
 

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LMAO JORDAN STOLE THE FADEAWAY TOO....AND DR. J'S WHOLE SWAG WAS JACKED BY MJ, ARE U KIDDIN ME? JORDAN HAS MORE ACCOLADES BECAUSE HE WAS PUT IN A PERFECT SITUATION AND GIVEN THE ULTIMATE PUSH BY THE NBA....GIVE JORDAN SMUSH AND KWAME IN HIS PRIME+ANTI-MJ AGENDA BY THE LEAGUE DUE TO A RAPE TRIAL, AND HE WOULDNT HAVE HALF THE ACCOLADES HE HAS.
Stole his fade-away from who? Who used that move more effectively than MJ? He unleashed it in 96 after he came back from retirement.

You keep saying Jordan was in the perfect situation because he had "prime Pippen". Pippen has talent, but Pippen also had the luxury of being molded by MJ everyday in practice. How do we know what "prime Pippen" would look like without the GOAT there. If Pip was Kobe's understudy/sidekick how do we know they would have even got along and had any chemistry. Most of Kobe's teammates couldn't stand him.
 
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OP, you keep bringing up the rape allegation against Kobe and how that derailed his chances of winning a league MVP or other league awards. He won his only league MVP after the rape trial in 03. He had 7 years in the league to win an MVP prior to the rape trial. MJ won an MVP in his first 7 years. If they had an agenda not to award Kobe after the rape trial, why did they give it to him in '08?
 

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Stole his fade-away from who? Who used that move more effectively than MJ? He unleashed it in 96 after he came back from retirement.

You keep saying Jordan was in the perfect situation because he had "prime Pippen". Pippen has talent, but Pippen also had the luxury of being molded by MJ everyday in practice. How do we know what "prime Pippen" would look like without the GOAT there. If Pip was Kobe's understudy/sidekick how do we know they would have even got along and had any chemistry. Most of Kobe's teammates couldn't stand him.


BRO WTF ARE U SAYIN.....THE FADEAWAY WAS AROUND WAY BEFORE 1996. IT WAS ONE OF WILT'S GO-TO MOVES:




ON TOP OF THAT, HAKEEM POPULARIZED IT BEFORE MJ DID IN 96.....PEOPLE WHO GIVE MJ CREDIT FOR THE FADEAWAY, AGAIN, ARE PEEPS WHO ARE BRAINWASHED BY THE NBA/MEDIA MARKETTING AGENDA TO PROPEL JORDAN TO GOD-LIKE STATUS


WE KNOW WHAT PIPPEN WAS WITOUT JORDAN, BECAUSE HE LED THE BULLS TO THE EASTERN CONFERENCE SEMI-FINALS. HE WAS A PROVEN FRANCHISE PLAYER WITOUT JORDAN.

MOST OF MJ'S TEAMMATES COULDNT STAND HIM EITHER, SO WTF U SAYIN...DO SOME RESEARCH FOR U POST G.
 

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Jordan was more efficient in every facet of the game:

At least, I think most people will agree that Jordan did more in his career than Kobe. But I also suspect that Kobe is “like Mike.” In other words, I imagine many people think the gap between these two players isn’t that large. The data, though, seem to tell a different story. Jordan isn’t just better than Kobe; in fact, when we measure the difference, we see that no one should suggest these two players are similar.

The NBA tracks a variety of box score statistics to measure player performance. When we look at these numbers for Jordan and Kobe, it is clear that the former has a significant edge. For example, when we compare what Jordan did for the Chicago Bulls to what Kobe did for the Lakers (before this season), although their scoring totals are similar, Jordan was the more efficient scorer. With the Bulls, MJ had an
effective field goal percentage of 51.83%. In contrast, Kobe’s mark with the Lakers is only 48.72%. To put that in perspective, the average shooting guard in the NBA (since the 1979-80 season when the three-point shot was added to the NBA) has an effective field goal percentage of 48.56%. In sum, Kobe has not been much better than average with respect to shooting from the field.

Jordan’s advantages with respect to Kobe, though, are not confined to shooting from the field. On a per-minute basis, Jordan also did more than Kobe has with respect to rebounds, assists, steals and blocked shots. Jordan was also less likely to commit turnovers, less likely to draw a personal foul and more likely to draw a foul. In sum, with respect to everything in the box score, Jordan was simply better.

Let’s begin with each player at his best.
In 1988-89, Jordan produced 26.5 wins as a 25-year old shooting guard. Kobe’s best season was in 2002-03. As a 24-year old shooting guard for the LA Lakers, Kobe produced 13.0 wins. So each player hit his peak in his mid-20s (that is actually fairly normal for a basketball player). And at each player’s peak, Jordan was nearly twice as productive.


Across each player’s entire career (up until this season), it’s the same story. Jordan finished his career with the Bulls in 1998 (we will ignore his ill-fated return to the Washington Wizards when he was 38 years old). Here is what MJ did for the Bulls:

  • 35,887 minutes played
  • 204.8 wins produced
  • 0.274 wins produced per 48 minutes
Meanwhile, here are Kobe’s career numbers before this season:

  • 45,225 minutes played
  • 138.7 wins produced
  • 0.147 wins produced per 48 minutes

Kobe’s inability to excel with respect shooting efficiently was noted recently in
an article by Henry Abbott for ESPN The Magazine.

Bryant has fired away for nearly two decades. He’s fourth on the NBA’s all-time scoring list, trailing only Kareem, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. He’s also just a few weeks’ play from setting an all-time league record for misses. “The problem is, he’s just not as good as he thinks he is,” says one source in the Lakers’ inner circle. “He’s just not as efficient as he thinks he is.

This passage essentially captures the weakness in Kobe’s game. Kobe will soon pass Jordan in scoring totals. But he will also soon pass everyone else in missed shots.

Those missed shots matter. The key to evaluating players is to make sure you measure accurately the positives and the negatives. In other words, accurate evaluation requires you get past the “scoring illusion” (i.e., placing too much emphasis on scoring totals in evaluating basketball players). When you take that step, it becomes clear that Jordan did much more than Kobe, and Kobe is nowhere close to being “like Mike.”




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The charts actually make the competition seem closer that I personally thought. When Kobe averaged his 35 ppg, he still had a 49% true shooting percentage? That's actually quite impressive. Unless I read the chart wrong.
 

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OP, you keep bringing up the rape allegation against Kobe and how that derailed his chances of winning a league MVP or other league awards. He won his only league MVP after the rape trial in 03. He had 7 years in the league to win an MVP prior to the rape trial. MJ won an MVP in his first 7 years. If they had an agenda not to award Kobe after the rape trial, why did they give it to him in '08?


BECAUSE THE LEAGUE WOULD LOOK RETARDED IF KOBE DIDNT AT LEAST GET 1...EVERY1 KNEW THE AWARD WAS A JOKE ONCE STEVE NASH STARTED WINNIN 'EM OVER KOBE.
 

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BRO WTF ARE U SAYIN.....THE FADEAWAY WAS AROUND WAY BEFORE 1996. IT WAS ONE OF WILT'S GO-TO MOVES:




ON TOP OF THAT, HAKEEM POPULARIZED IT BEFORE MJ DID IN 96.....PEOPLE WHO GIVE MJ CREDIT FOR THE FADEAWAY, AGAIN, ARE PEEPS WHO ARE BRAINWASHED BY THE NBA/MEDIA MARKETTING AGENDA TO PROPEL JORDAN TO GOD-LIKE STATUS


WE KNOW WHAT PIPPEN WAS WITOUT JORDAN, BECAUSE HE LED THE BULLS TO THE EASTERN CONFERENCE SEMI-FINALS. HE WAS A PROVEN FRANCHISE PLAYER WITOUT JORDAN.

MOST OF MJ'S TEAMMATES COULDNT STAND HIM EITHER, SO WTF U SAYIN...DO SOME RESEARCH FOR U POST G.

I didn't say MJ invented it. The way he used it was different than post players like Wilt and Duncan. MJ backed his defender down from the perimeter, not so much in the post.

We know what Pippen was in 94 without Jordan, but do we know what Pip would have been had he never played with MJ?
 

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BECAUSE THE LEAGUE WOULD LOOK RETARDED IF KOBE DIDNT AT LEAST GET 1...EVERY1 KNEW THE AWARD WAS A JOKE ONCE STEVE NASH STARTED WINNIN 'EM OVER KOBE.
Steve Nash was the engine of those Phoenix teams and they wouldn't have done shyt without him. They usually give the award to the player who has the most impact on a playoff team. I don't think the Lakers were in the playoffs when Nash won those years. James Harden should have won this year over Steph. This year was a popularity contest, as you say.
 

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The charts actually make the competition seem closer that I personally thought. When Kobe averaged his 35 ppg, he still had a 49% true shooting percentage? That's actually quite impressive. Unless I read the chart wrong.

Yea, if you cherry-pick one or two years and ignore the body of work.
 

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Total Games played

Jordan - 1,072
Kobe - 1,280 (or 208 more NBA games than Jordan)

30 point games (Regular Season)


Michael Jordan -- 562

Wilt Chamberlain -- 515
Karl Malone -- 435
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 429
Kobe Bryant -- 408
Oscar Robertson -- 387
Jerry West -- 350
Dominque Wilkins -- 346
Allen Iverson -- 345
Elgin Baylor -- 343
Adrian Dantley -- 313
Shaquille O'Neal -- 313
Lebron James -- 304
George Gervin -- 296
Bob Pettit - 284
Alex English - 276
Elvin Hayes -- 253


40 point games (Regular Season)

Wilt Chamberlain -- 271
Michael Jordan -- 173
Kobe Bryant -- 117
Elgin Baylor -- 88
Allen Iverson -- 79
Oscar Robertson -- 77
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 70
Rick Barry -- 70
George Gervin -- 68
Jerry West -- 66
Bob McAdoo -- 58
Dominique Wilkins -- 57
Shaquille O'Neal -- 49
Lebron James -- 49
Larry Bird -- 47


50 point games (Regular Season)

Wilt Chamberlain -- 118
Michael Jordan -- 31
Kobe Bryant -- 24

Elgin Baylor -- 14
Rick Barry -- 13
Allen Iverson -- 11
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 10
Lebron James -- 9
Bernard King -- 8
Dominique Wilkins -- 7
Adrian Dantley -- 6
Pete Maravich -- 6
Bob Pettit -- 6
George Gervin -- 5
Jerry West -- 5
Nate Archibald -- 4
Larry Bird -- 4
Karl Malone -- 4
Moses Malone -- 4
Tracy McGrady -- 4
Bob McAdoo -- 4
George Mikan -- 4


60 point games (Regular Season)

Wilt Chamberlain -- 32
Kobe Bryant -- 5
Elgin Baylor -- 5
Michael Jordan -- 4
David Thompson -- 1
David Robinson -- 1
Pete Maravich -- 1
Rick Barry -- 1
Joe Fulks -- 1
Jerry West -- 1
George Gervin -- 1
Karl Malone -- 1
Tracy McGrady -- 1
George Mikan -- 1
Shaquille O'Neal -- 1
Bernard King -- 1
Larry Bird -- 1
Tom Chambers -- 1
Allen Iverson -- 1
Gilbert Arenas -- 1


Playoff games played

Jordan - 179
Kobe - 220 (or 41 more playoff games for Kobe)

30 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 109
Kobe Bryant -- 88

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 75
Jerry West -- 74
Elgin Baylor -- 60
Shaquille O'Neal -- 55
Karl Malone -- 54
Lebron James -- 53
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 53
Rick Barry -- 48
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45
Larry Bird -- 43
Wilt Chamberlain -- 42
Allen Iverson -- 36
Tim Duncan -- 35
Bob Pettit -- 33
George Gervin -- 32
Dwyane Wade -- 31


40 point games (Playoffs)
Michael Jordan -- 38
Jerry West -- 20
Elgin Baylor -- 14
Kobe Bryant -- 13
Wilt Chamberlain -- 13
Shaquille O'Neal -- 12
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 11
Lebron James -- 11
Allen Iverson -- 10
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 9
Rick Barry -- 8
Bernard King -- 7
Dirk Nowitzki -- 7
Dwyane Wade -- 7
George Gervin -- 6
Charles Barkley -- 5
Larry Bird -- 5
John Havlicek -- 5
Bob McAdoo -- 5
Bob Pettit -- 5
Dominique Wilkins -- 5


50 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 8
Wilt Chamberlain -- 4
Allen Iverson -- 3
Jerry West -- 2
Elgin Baylor -- 1
Charles Barkley -- 1
Rick Barry -- 1
John Havlicek -- 1
Sam Jones -- 1
Eric Floyd -- 1
Ray Allen -- 1
Bob Pettit -- 1
Billy Cunningham -- 1
Bob McAdoo -- 1
Dominique Wilkins -- 1
Karl Malone -- 1
Vince Carter -- 1
Dirk Nowitzki -- 1
Kobe Bryant -- 1
Bob Cousy -- 1


60 point games (Playoffs)
Michael Jordan -- 1
Elgin Baylor -- 1
 
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