Is LeBron close to Kareem level to you now? If not what does he gotta do?

[Draje]

he has half the titles as Kareem so I'd say no

kareem only has 2 FMVPs tho....which I dont personally care about but it's a talking point for the Bron side of the argument.

Hmm, why don’t you care about FMVPs?

 

[Reggie]

Cap with what he did in high school and at UCLA has a legit argument for number 1 much less being number 2. But if Bron can get another ring or two the argument would be interesting.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Dudes be saying that shyt with confidence. Shyt is puzzling.

 

[Mʀ2ᴋDᴇᴇᴢ]

Next couple nikkas after MJ/Kareem are interchangeable imo, so nah not exactly at that level yet

 

[Trece]

LeBron would have to get into a time machine and win some finals that he lost on a COMPLETELY STACKED TEAM.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Finals MVP makes player A better than player B?

Iggy has one, Steph has none.

Tony Parker has one, CP, AI, Westbrook, Kevin Johnson, Glove , Stockton, all have none.

Paul Piece has one, T Mac has none.

First it was regular season MVPs, but when when Kareem has 6, then we quickly go to Finals MVPs to make a point of who’s better, then when someone uses Shaq’s 3 FMVPs, then it goes back to regular season MVPs and finals APPEARANCES.

These debates are useless bullshyt. Goal posts and narratives change like your wife when getting ready for a party.

 

[murksiderock]

Duncan is one of the 10 best players in NBA history, as is Lebron...and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I’ve seen from Lebron puts him in some rarefied air that has him decisively up and above Duncan (TD’s game being not based around stat whoring and allowing the other components of the various incarnations of the Spurs to maximize their impact instead of getting Bosh’d/Love’d is NOT an demerit against him, but a testament to his greatness) ....this media push to fast lane Lebron pass the likes of Duncan (amongst others) is shameless and disgusting...and insulting to the other all time greats

nikka, you're saying "fast lane" like Bron just got drafted 4 years ago lmao. You do realize he's played 16 years? That's longer than many GOATs of yesteryear and more than enough to evaluate where you stand All-Time...

TheColi was just going batshyt crazy in June calling Kawhi a Top 10-20 player of All-Time after just 8 years, where were you then? Hahahahahaha...

LeBron wasn't seriously in Top 10 GOAT convos until that second chip six years ago, after Year 10. Before then, it was all talk about his potential, but nobody had him Top 10 ever until then. 10 years in, is about where legacies are contemplated on a serious level, that's a decade of work that many guys never reach...

16 years is not a fast track, he got the body of work and more importantly, the results, to be considered a GOAT...

I'll agree to disagree with you on Duncan. I do think he's Top 10 All-Time, bit so many other variables come into play with him. Very, very, very few people come into The League with the fortune he had and have it for their whole career, I'm thinking Magic, Bird, Russell, who else? He was in an extremely blessed scenario and made the most of it, but even then, he was never the consensus best player, had his own embarrassing moments getting outplayed by Shaq and Kobe and KG, and he started fading relatively early for a GOAT---->the last truly GREAT Duncan season was 2003-04. He came into The League on fire, his first 7 years dude was definitely arguable as best in the game, even if it wasn't a consensus. He started fading a little after that, he had a semi-throwback year in '07, and you can count 2010 if you want, but he was pretty washed his last 6 seasons, got worse each year and could be great in limited moments, but consistently good-to-great Duncan was gone after 2009-10, and debatable best player alive Duncan was gone years before that (though he was still a Top 5-10 player between 2004-2010)...

So if I'm stretching it for Duncan, really dude had 9 elite years tops, that's closer to Dwyane Wade and people of that I'll than people like LeBron----->and the ONLY reason people even put Duncan in the Top 10 is the rings. His resume, as in championships, beats a lot of people, but when you actually compare his game, impact, longevity as an elite player, and dominance relative to other GOATs, he doesn't look nearly as strong...

So yeah, I'll pass on The Big Overrated lol. Great player, but there was an agenda forcing him on people his entire career, and he wasn't nearly as dominant as other GOATs, including Bron, nor as great for as long...

 

[10bandz]

Hmm, why don’t you care about FMVPs?

I do care i just don't think it's the end all be all of how to judge a player. Kareem is literally the most decorated baller from HS to the NBA, and i'mma downgrade him under a nikka thats 3-6 in the Finals cuz of FMVPs, an award decided by the media?

Plus, Kareem got robbed of the 1980 FMVP.

 

[murksiderock]

Aiight, time to add some context to Kareem...

For one, I don't disagree that he's the most decorated and accomplished baller ever, from prep to pro. That's an indisputable fact, nobody has more accomplishments than him...

But one of the best ways to measure guys is what they did when they were #1. He was a #1 for the first 12 years of his career, 1969-1981; by pretty much any stat that measures impact on team success (like win shares and win shares per 48), Magic was the best player on the Lakers starting the 1981-82 season, and we already know his legend in LA as the face of the Lakers then. There is no disputing Magic was the face of Showtime...

I don't think Magic was the better player career for career, but he was their best player the majority of the time they played together...

Just a few pertinent stats regarding Kareem as a #1 (1969-1981):

•2x champion, '71 FMVP, 6x MVP, 11x All-NBA (8x 1st Team), 11x All-Star, 10x All-Defense (5x 1st Team), 2x scoring champ, '76 rebounding champ, '70 ROY, 4x blocks champ

That alone makes him one of the most accomplished players ever. He was for sure the best player in the NBA for at least a decade. Then you look beyond the accolades and see his impact on winning:

•missed the playoffs back to back in his prime ('75, '76)

•3-3 in conference Finals, 2-1 in NBA Finals

•teams averaged 53.4 wins/year; avg playoff seeding was 2.2

•205.1 win shares; .260 WS/48

•9x led league in win shares, was Top 4 all 12 years; 9x led league in WS/48, was Top 5 all 12 years

Kareem did all this, and lost twice in the Semis, twice in the First Round, and missed the playoffs twice, both on his prime...

You can say what you want about me but I'm fair and I grade guys the same. I wonder how the other guy we're comparing him to looks in comparison?

 

[Shadow King]

Finals MVP makes player A better than player B?

Iggy has one, Steph has none.

Tony Parker has one, CP, AI, Westbrook, Kevin Johnson, Glove , Stockton, all have none.

Paul Piece has one, T Mac has none.

First it was regular season MVPs, but when when Kareem has 6, then we quickly go to Finals MVPs to make a point of who’s better, then when someone uses Shaq’s 3 FMVPs, then it goes back to regular season MVPs and finals APPEARANCES.

These debates are useless bullshyt. Goal posts and narratives change like your wife when getting ready for a party.

Maybe it's a combination and not just one factor?

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

Maybe it's a combination and not just one factor?

Nah. They don’t use combinations ‘round here. It’s all about rings and Finals MVPs. Damn the actual skill, impact, circumstances,and intangibles of the game and career.

 

[CHICAGO]

Consensus isn't strong at all, you're reaching, but before I expound, I'm gonna repeat something I've done here before...

A)how many of you guys in here watched Kareem play? His career ended in 1989, 30 years ago, so if you saw him play, give your age for the record too...

I was born June 4, 1989. I obviously didn't see him play...

B)how many of you dudes actually talk basketball with old heads, guys who actually saw Kareem's prime? Give specifics, like who you spoke to, how often, where, etc...

I've done time, so I've talked to many old heads who are hoop heads who grew up on Kareem, or are Kareem's age....my pops is also 54 years old, I've chopped it with him about older cats, my grandfather is Kareem's age, he'll be 72 on the 25th of this month, and when I used to hang out with him and his three best friends at they coffee shop a couple times a week, we talked about everything under the sun---->including sports. I was consistently the only guy there born after 1955, with the exception of one of the old head's grandsons who popped in like twice...

These two questions are exposal questions. I asked this same question on here when guys said Mike is the undisputed GOAT, and guess how many people responded?

ZERO...

So off the rip, with Kareem on this particular website, there is a heavy anti-LeBron bias, so that's going to disproportionately slant opinions here. Two, 99% of the posters here didn't see Kareem play a game in real time, and those who did, are still young enough that they didn't see most of his career. Kareem played 20 years. To even have seen half of his career, you would have had to be watching in 1979. Very few dudes here can say that, so the ones who can saw a condensed version of older Kareem...

Three, most of the brothers in here don't talk ball with old heads, and you can tell because the consistent contributors to basketball threads here give the tell away in conversations all the time. Prime example #1---->anyone who says Mike is the undisputed, unquestionable, irrefutable GOAT, and alota you nikkas said that, haven't talked to anybody born before 1960 who is a real hoop head...and there are other tells cats say on here where its crystal clear dudes are speaking for and from a particular demographic...

To the topic, I've found that Kareem occupies an odd space with hoop culture of all demographics. There isn't a demo that really has Kareem as a consensus #1, the same way there is no consensus among old heads that he's #2 to Mike, because alot of the old heads think he was better than Mike...



Criteria only change on here when a LeBron GOAT topic is being discussed...

Last thing:

It's rare to hear guys talk about Kareem vs Bron specifically because their eras were so far apart---->you hear Mike vs Kareem more because their eras overlapped, you hear Mike vs LeBron more because Bron came in right after Mike retired the last time, so there wasn't a gap between their eras. So you don't hear Kareem vs LeBron specifically, but for sure when old heads are talking ball, they are putting both of them in that upper echelon, period. The older heads weren't as hellbent on labeling guys as "this guy gotta be #1, this guy is #2, etc", as we are now and have been the last 20 years. Bit I have yet to meet even ONE old head who says LeBron isn't in the conversation for best player ever...

I haven't met one, this idea LeBron isn't in the convo for #1 is a media thing. For sure, there are plenty of people who don't have him #1, and plenty who would say he isn't #2, but you asked for consensus? There is no consensus Kareem was better than LeBron by old heads, and younger fans who didn't see Kareem play, will either through bias put Kareem ahead (anti-LeBron), or put LeBron ahead (LeBron Stan). Very few dudes on here talk ball without an agenda, they know who they are...

For my money, Mike, Kareem, Bron are the best players in NBA history. I'm a LeBron Stan, but I couldn't really care what order you put them in, my thing is always this "undisputed, unquestionable" shyt. Those are the Top 3 as currently stands, anything else is shytting on either guy...

If I "had" to choose though, I'd put Bron over Kareem. Bron played with higher expectations from Day 1, never had an All-Time coach, never played with another Top 10 GOAT, and transcended The Game in a way almost nobody has. Kareem was an outstanding player, but he didn't really change the game on a physical or a cultural level. He had an unbearable move, but wasn't the culture changer LeBron has been, not to Bron's level...

Kareem also "dominated" the weakest era in NBA history, the 1970s. The worst era in the history of The League, and he missed the playoffs back to back in the middle of his fukking prime in 1975 and 1976, which was Year 6 and Year 7. Averaging 28.7/15.6/4.6, without that one title in Year 2, he was pretty close to AD or KG status, big numbers and not enough impact. Don't tell me how great a guy is and in the middle of his gotdamn prime he's sitting at home in the Spring...

So he dominated the weakest era in NBA history and got one title out of it. His other 5 chips came in the 80s when he got another GOAT with him. Now, you can say, Mike "dominated" the 80s, no rings, Bron dominated the 00s, no rings, but those guys also weren't missing the playoffs without injury in their primes----->to say nothing of the fact that the 80s and the 00s weren't "dominated" by Mike and Bron, the way they dominated the following respective decades...

Kareem played on a GOAT team and to this day, there is dispute as to whether he or Magic was the engine driving their success. Even the OGs who favor Kareem have split opinions on whether he or Magic was more integral to the Lakers...

When LeBron started winning at a high level, there was never a dispute as to who was driving that bus. When Mike started winning at a high level, nobody questioned who was running the show. Was Kareen really The Guy like those two, or was he the greatest #2 ever?

You're always splitting hairs when you're talking about the cream of the crop and there is certainly an argument to be made for Kareem over Bron (and Mike), but I'm taking Bron over Kareem easily. Easily, and there is far from a consensus Kareem was better than Bron...

nikka, you're saying "fast lane" like Bron just got drafted 4 years ago lmao. You do realize he's played 16 years? That's longer than many GOATs of yesteryear and more than enough to evaluate where you stand All-Time...

TheColi was just going batshyt crazy in June calling Kawhi a Top 10-20 player of All-Time after just 8 years, where were you then? Hahahahahaha...

LeBron wasn't seriously in Top 10 GOAT convos until that second chip six years ago, after Year 10. Before then, it was all talk about his potential, but nobody had him Top 10 ever until then. 10 years in, is about where legacies are contemplated on a serious level, that's a decade of work that many guys never reach...

16 years is not a fast track, he got the body of work and more importantly, the results, to be considered a GOAT...

I'll agree to disagree with you on Duncan. I do think he's Top 10 All-Time, bit so many other variables come into play with him. Very, very, very few people come into The League with the fortune he had and have it for their whole career, I'm thinking Magic, Bird, Russell, who else? He was in an extremely blessed scenario and made the most of it, but even then, he was never the consensus best player, had his own embarrassing moments getting outplayed by Shaq and Kobe and KG, and he started fading relatively early for a GOAT---->the last truly GREAT Duncan season was 2003-04. He came into The League on fire, his first 7 years dude was definitely arguable as best in the game, even if it wasn't a consensus. He started fading a little after that, he had a semi-throwback year in '07, and you can count 2010 if you want, but he was pretty washed his last 6 seasons, got worse each year and could be great in limited moments, but consistently good-to-great Duncan was gone after 2009-10, and debatable best player alive Duncan was gone years before that (though he was still a Top 5-10 player between 2004-2010)...

So if I'm stretching it for Duncan, really dude had 9 elite years tops, that's closer to Dwyane Wade and people of that I'll than people like LeBron----->and the ONLY reason people even put Duncan in the Top 10 is the rings. His resume, as in championships, beats a lot of people, but when you actually compare his game, impact, longevity as an elite player, and dominance relative to other GOATs, he doesn't look nearly as strong...

So yeah, I'll pass on The Big Overrated lol. Great player, but there was an agenda forcing him on people his entire career, and he wasn't nearly as dominant as other GOATs, including Bron, nor as great for as long...

Aiight, time to add some context to Kareem...

For one, I don't disagree that he's the most decorated and accomplished baller ever, from prep to pro. That's an indisputable fact, nobody has more accomplishments than him...

But one of the best ways to measure guys is what they did when they were #1. He was a #1 for the first 12 years of his career, 1969-1981; by pretty much any stat that measures impact on team success (like win shares and win shares per 48), Magic was the best player on the Lakers starting the 1981-82 season, and we already know his legend in LA as the face of the Lakers then. There is no disputing Magic was the face of Showtime...

I don't think Magic was the better player career for career, but he was their best player the majority of the time they played together...

Just a few pertinent stats regarding Kareem as a #1 (1969-1981):

•2x champion, '71 FMVP, 6x MVP, 11x All-NBA (8x 1st Team), 11x All-Star, 10x All-Defense (5x 1st Team), 2x scoring champ, '76 rebounding champ, '70 ROY, 4x blocks champ

That alone makes him one of the most accomplished players ever. He was for sure the best player in the NBA for at least a decade. Then you look beyond the accolades and see his impact on winning:

•missed the playoffs back to back in his prime ('75, '76)

•3-3 in conference Finals, 2-1 in NBA Finals

•teams averaged 53.4 wins/year; avg playoff seeding was 2.2

•205.1 win shares; .260 WS/48

•9x led league in win shares, was Top 4 all 12 years; 9x led league in WS/48, was Top 5 all 12 years

Kareem did all this, and lost twice in the Semis, twice in the First Round, and missed the playoffs twice, both on his prime...

You can say what you want about me but I'm fair and I grade guys the same. I wonder how the other guy we're comparing him to looks in comparison?

DUDE NOBODY IS READING ALL THIS shyt.
WHAT THE fukk IS WRONG WITH YOU?




​

 

[Suleiman Bey]

IMO, LeBron can never be the goat because nobody fears him except Demar DeFrozen

 

[Shadow King]

Nah. They don’t use combinations ‘round here. It’s all about rings and Finals MVPs. Damn the actual skill and impact on the game.

That's really not how it goes but okay

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

That's really not how it goes but okay

Breh, I KNOW, I’m just laying down the methods these dudes of the Coli use to create their narratives.